That which is perfect

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

1 Cor. 13:10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (NASB, 1995)

Thank you for bringing 1 John 3:1-2 to our attention. I believe that both of these passages are speaking of the same event, that is, the Second Coming of Christ.

Wow! Never caught this before!

[percho]

Wow! Never caught this before!

It is saying almost the exact same thing from two different writers.

[Watchman]

i agree. I also think 1C1310-12 fit very nicely thought wise with 1 John 3:1-2

1 John 3:1-2 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24,49-54 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (telos-neuter gender), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death...And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

These passages also fit together nicely, along with 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

blessings,

Watchman

[Boo]

Good morning, Boo,

Wow. I'm not sure what to say. Whatever was in my reply to you that caused you to think I know something about you; whatever I wrote that caused you to think my view of you is that of a country bumpkin; and for whichever of my words led you to think my view is that you study shallowly...please forgive me! None of those were intended, nor were they even remotely in my thoughts. That post (#31) is part of the testimony of Christ working in my life. It was intended to show you why I approach certain things in certain ways. It was an explanation and nothing more.

One thing would be helpful. Would you kindly point me to what I wrote that appears to you that I've assumed things about you? I'm completely clueless, even after rereading the post. In fact, that post had a good bit of "I" trouble! Thanks.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: Even though I don't understand your pov on this, yet, I do appreciate your candor and honesty!

Andy, let's consider my last post as an example of the quality of my writing skills when I don't take the time to properly review the words. The error is mine, so please accept my apology for accusing you of anything. I see no accusations or challenges in your post, so I should not have included your name in my response other than to thank you for your post.

[Watchman]

No worries, Boo. I've been guilty of reading too fast, of misunderstanding, and of just about every other mistake one can make on an internet discussion forum. Hope your day is blessed tremendously!

blessings,

A

[John146]

I fully agree. The NT is certainly God inspired writings. I would never doubt that fact. But as to 2 Timothy 3:15-17, personally I agree with what Watchman said in post #24, where he indicated that Paul was obviously referring to the OT in that passage.

That's probably true, but I think it's at least possible that he was also referring to his own writings up to that point, knowing that they too were scriptures. There's really no way to prove that one way or another and I really don't see what difference it makes, anyway. We know that what is said in that passage about any scripture that was written up to that point can be applied to any scripture that was written after that time as well.

[MaryFreeman]

I agree. But what do you think the author of the passage was thinking when he wrote that? Would he be thinking and knowing that his words would also get compiled into this book we call the Bible, the Holy Scriptures?

No one ever thinks what they do will one day be significant.... Most of us don't even realize God can use us in spite of our pasts....

Take me for example.... And all I've done.... And now?

I am a bible study leader and have an in home womens ministry.... I think the writers of the bible were led by the Spirit and simply obeyed the command to write....

[Boo]

Thank you.

Any day that I know that God is teaching me or using me is a blessed day - and that is most days.

No worries, Boo. I've been guilty of reading too fast, of misunderstanding, and of just about every other mistake one can make on an internet discussion forum. Hope your day is blessed tremendously!

blessings,

A

[Watchman]

I'm bumping this back up, since another thread seems to be getting overrun with the idea that the 'completion' of the scriptures did away with the need for the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

blessings,

W

[claybevan]

My pastors wife loves to say that the OT is best viewed through the eyes of the NT.... IMHO this scripture in 2 Tim. refers to BOTH.... Because I am an NT believer who also finds a lot of spiritual food in the OT....

I don't believe it's possible to get a full understanding of the New Testament without the Old.

[claybevan]

I'm bumping this back up, since another thread seems to be getting overrun with the idea that the 'completion' of the scriptures did away with the need for the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

blessings,

W

I thank the Lord for scripture, but I don't believe for one moment that without it we would would be hopelessly lost or unable to function in God's love.
When I read some of the threads It reminds me how bogged down in the law the Jews got and I believe that sometimes we can be in danger of the same error.
I know I'll get lambasted for this comment, so I say again, Praise de Lord for the written word but let's keep our ears and hearts open as well.

[Watchman]

I thank the Lord for scripture, but I don't believe for one moment that without it we would would be hopelessly lost or unable to function in God's love.
When I read some of the threads It reminds me how bogged down in the law the Jews got and I believe that sometimes we can be in danger of the same error.
I know I'll get lambasted for this comment, so I say again, Praise de Lord for the written word but let's keep our ears and hearts open as well.

I dearly love the scriptures, too, Clay. I also believe they can become an idol when handled strictly via the mind and emotions of the soul. Your post reminded me of Jesus' words to the Pharisees. They searched the scripture because they thought eternal life lay therein...and Life was standing before them, telling them that the scriptures testify of HIM!

blessings,

W

[MoreMercy]

Greetings Watchman, this is the first time you have confused me by your communication here since we met here. So, I apologize if I misunderstand what you share on this thread, but here goes:

Most times in communication between "christians" the bible is referenced as the "word"/God's "word"
So Watchman, if we can agree on that, then I will be communicating from that definition per context in this post.

I have no place at all in myself for the Holy Spirit of God to work renewal in myself, if the "word" is not in me.

No bells for the Holy Spirit to ring in my mind that will bring to my mind's remembrance the "word" deposited in my mind.

No references to test or confirm what is near me, or what is beyond the closest or next horizon, with out the "word" in me.

No instruction to be kept-in/abide-in by the Holy Spirit, if the "word" is not in me or kept by me to reference, learn from or test-with/test-by.

No references to seek any confirmation of good or correctness found only in His "word" since Christ Jesus left us.





I must establish another definition per context for a word I will be using next "glorified/full-fatness/nothing-lacking/Holy"

God's "word", is the ONLY good seed, Christ Jesus was/is God's "word" now fully glorified but not yet fully manifest.
Glorified here by His resurrection into His glorified body now, but still not fully-manifest till His next return to us.

But Christ Jesus is not with us now since His glorified body departed near 2000 years ago, until His Father send Him to return to collect what His work done here purchased.
(note) Not with us defacto/in-person but with the only exception of when two or more of us gather together to Him or for Him.
But that does not fulfill His defacto/person here with us but only the fulness of the ONLY Spirit that was fully in Him while He was here defacto/in-person with us, before He left us.
...What is left here with us after He left us is His Holy Spirit sent to be with us a short season after Christ Jesus-glorified and resurrected (Not Christ Jesus-the-Lamb, but Christ Jesus-glorified and resurrected) after Christ Jesus-glorified left us shortly after completing the work He came to do here among us and for us while He walk here with us as Christ Jesus-the-Lamb.





I said all of that to preface this, what I want to ask you:
What I read from you here on this thread brings me to see that you might think and try to teach here that we can now or some have now already reached that same state of (maturity-full-fatness) glorified-living-being now before Christ Jesus-glorified returns again to claim and reign/rule completely what He-the-Lamb-Christ-Jesus purchased by His fully obedient work done and completed.

Is that what you are communicating ?

Because even if we be fully-matured by Him and in Him before He returns to us, we will still never become Him, we are now and will always only be little-christ/christians even into the horizon of eternity if we be graced by Him for-into eternity with Him.... we will still be serving ONLY Him there too, meaning: a servant is never above their Master, amen !


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

Greetings Watchman, this is the first time you have confused me by your communication here since we met here. So, I apologize if I misunderstand what you share on this thread, but here goes:

Most times in communication between "christians" the bible is referenced as the "word"/God's "word"
So Watchman, if we can agree on that, then I will be communicating from that definition per context in this post.

I have no place at all in myself for the Holy Spirit of God to work renewal in myself, if the "word" is not in me.

No bells for the Holy Spirit to ring in my mind that will bring to my mind's remembrance of "word" deposited in my mind.

No references to test or confirm what is near me, or what is beyond the closest or next horizon, with out the "word" in me.

No instruction to be kept-in/abide-in by the Holy Spirit, if the "word" is not in me or kept by me to reference, learn from or test-with/test-by.

No references to seek any confirmation of good or correctness found only in His "word" since Christ Jesus left us.





I must establish another definition per context for a word I will be using next "glorified/full-fatness/nothing-lacking/Holy"

God's "word", is the ONLY good seed, Christ Jesus was/is God's "word" now fully manifest and glorified.
Glorified here by His resurrection into His glorified body now, but still not fully-manifest till His next return to us.

But Christ Jesus is not with us now since His glorified body departed near 2000 years ago, until His Father send Him to return to collect what His work done here purchased.
(note) Not with us defacto/in-person but with the only exception of when two or more of us gather together to Him or for Him.
But that does not fulfill His defacto/person here with us but only the fulness of the ONLY Spirit that was fully in Him while He was here defacto/in-person with us, before He left us.
...What is left here with us after He left us is His Holy Spirit sent to be with us a short season after Christ Jesus-glorified and resurrected (Not Christ Jesus-the-Lamb, but Christ Jesus-glorified and resurrected) after Christ Jesus-glorified left us shortly after completing the work He came to do here among us and for us while He walk here with us as Christ Jesus-the-Lamb.





I said all of that to preface this, what I want to ask you:
What I read from you here on this thread brings me to see that you might think and try to teach here that we can now or some have now already reached that same state of (maturity-full-fatness) glorified-living-being now before Christ Jesus-glorified returns again to claim and reign/rule completely what He-the-Lamb-Christ-Jesus purchased by His fully obedient work done and completed.

Is that what you are communicating ?
Because even if we be fully-matured by Him and in Him, we will still never become Him, we are now and will always only be little-christ/christians even into the horizon of Eternity if we be graced there by Him.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Well sir, I've never been accused of being a master communicator!

Yes, most folks refer to the Bible as the Word of God. I refer to Christ as the Word. I refer to the God-breathed writings as scriptures, just as do the scriptures. Sorry for the confusion about that!

I believe it is possible for some to reach the maturity spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 before the completion, ie the end, the return of Christ...but very unlikely. Paul, writing near the end of his life stated he had not attained it, so the bar is set rather high, yes? When I think of spiritual maturity, I think of one who is progressively becoming more submitted to God, more in tune with Him, and more obedient to Him. Of course this process starts at our new birth, but the mature are those who are able to receive the things of God, as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 2. I am emphatically NOT teaching that we can be glorified as is Christ before His return...and we will never be Him. Which part gave you that impression? I may need to edit and reword, or post a more full explanation. Thanks for your comments and questions, bro!

Andy

PS: I believe He is not with us, rather He is within us...just as I believe we are presently seated in the heavens in Him at our Father's right hand!

[MoreMercy]

Excuse me once more please Watchman:
My post to you was not to set a common definition between us.

My post was to request you clarify to me what I detect as your effort to teach or introduce:
The now uselessness of bible/word/scripture and new testament epistles and writings for or toward our maturity in Christ.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.