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Thread: That which is perfect

  1. #76
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    My precious readers,

    The interpretation given above cannot possibly be correct for numerous reasons. The Greek adjective τελειον, translated in 1 Cor. 13:10 as “perfect,” is neuter in gender; therefore, the noun that it describes must also be a neuter gender. The Greek noun translated as knowledge in 1 Cor. 13:2 and 12:8 is feminine in gender. Therefore, Paul cannot possibly be referring to knowledge when he writes of “that which is perfect.” Furthermore, he writes that people who have all knowledge are “nothing” without love. Moreover, at the time that Paul wrote his First Epistle to the Corinthians, he was an adult, no longer a child, but he speaks in verse 10 of perfection as something not yet realized. Indeed, we know that the perfection of which Paul speaks will not be realized until the event of Christ’s Second Coming has been realized and, “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,” at the sounding of the last trumpet, “the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Only then, will all that is in part be done away; only then will we see Christ face to face. Now we know only in part, but upon that bright and glorious morning, we shall know even as we are known!

    Paul was not writing in v. 10 of his 21st birthday when he would become an adult and he would think that he knew it all (Paul was, at the time that he wrote his First Epistle to the Corinthians, an adult in his 50’s; and although he had been gifted by God with a knowledge of Christ and His teachings, he was looking forward to knowing about Christ and other heavenly things, just as he was known by Christ. What a fantastically glorious event that will be! My 21st birthday was not all that spectacular. How about yours?


    10. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
    11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)

    In verse 11, Paul is simply giving us an analogy to illustrate the increase in knowledge that we will receive upon the event of Christ’s Second Coming, the Second Advent— when that which is perfect has come!

    It is not a reference to the 2nd Coming.
    Why would it really matter then for we are with Christ.
    What if the point of knowing stuff with out the chance to test it with pressure?

    Why would he write that to a infant of mind congregation struggling with gifts and would all die before Christs return?

    The tone of his writing indicates the COMPLETE would occur in their life time... Paul was even thinking it would occur before the end of his life.
    It is not a after life reference by any sorts.

    They would get a chance to know these things and apply it to their spiritual life while alive and on earth.
    It was the competition of the knowledge and prophecy of the mystery doctrine of the Church that they would have a chance understand it.
    Last edited by Colight; May 7th 2012 at 01:07 PM.

  2. #77
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Oh bless my soul! I actually agree with Jemand!!! !!!!

    My Church....


    TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!

    TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Despite all the theories about what "the perfect" is, the apparent history given within the epistles indicates that the sign gifts disappeared during Paul's wanderings. The total absence of any references to tongues and his inability to heal his bretheren speak as a testament that "the perfect" came while Paul was alive.

    That being the case, the discussion serves little purpose, but the indication that whatever he was expecting finally arrived.

  4. #79
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    Despite all the theories about what "the perfect" is, the apparent history given within the epistles indicates that the sign gifts disappeared during Paul's wanderings. The total absence of any references to tongues and his inability to heal his bretheren speak as a testament that "the perfect" came while Paul was alive.

    That being the case, the discussion serves little purpose, but the indication that whatever he was expecting finally arrived.
    Good mornin', Boo,

    I don't see these things in scripture. Would you give some references, please? Are you saying the lack of reports of Paul healing means he was unable to heal? If you are correct, then, true...this discussion serves little purpose.

    blessings,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    Despite all the theories about what "the perfect" is, the apparent history given within the epistles indicates that the sign gifts disappeared during Paul's wanderings. The total absence of any references to tongues and his inability to heal his bretheren speak as a testament that "the perfect" came while Paul was alive.

    That being the case, the discussion serves little purpose, but the indication that whatever he was expecting finally arrived.
    What could possibly have arrived during the time that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians and his death? The Holy Spirit arrived before Paul got saved. The Bible was not completed in Paul's lifetime. Jesus did not return. So what "perfect" came in the time frame that you are speaking of?
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  6. #81
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    Re: That which is perfect

    I will agree that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not mentioned much as time passed, even in the ECF; however, given that they are for the good of the body of Christ, it is not the signs that should be the focus, rather, the condtion of the church...which, it seems to me from limited study of the ECF, diverted from scripture rather quickly. Could it be that, as the scriptures became more available, folks depended upon their understanding of them and upon their abilities to read and obey, rather than on the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I will agree that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not mentioned much as time passed, even in the ECF; however, given that they are for the good of the body of Christ, it is not the signs that should be the focus, rather, the condtion of the church...which, it seems to me from limited study of the ECF, diverted from scripture rather quickly. Could it be that, as the scriptures became more available, folks depended upon their understanding of them and upon their abilities to read and obey, rather than on the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?
    Yes.... And as the end draws near and "The Perfect" gets ready to come.... These are the people who will fall away due to itching ears....

    My Church....


    TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!

    TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
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  8. #83
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    Despite all the theories about what "the perfect" is, the apparent history given within the epistles indicates that the sign gifts disappeared during Paul's wanderings. The total absence of any references to tongues and his inability to heal his bretheren speak as a testament that "the perfect" came while Paul was alive.

    That being the case, the discussion serves little purpose, but the indication that whatever he was expecting finally arrived.
    It is held in some circles that now that we have the bible we no longer need for a direct intervention of the Spirit. But this reduces the bible to an infomercial. The bible is testifying to a life that is governed by the Spirit.
    Formerly "Adullam" from other sites!


    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.

    Walk in the Light! (
    התהלכו באור)

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    It is held in some circles that now that we have the bible we no longer need for a direct intervention of the Spirit. But this reduces the bible to an infomercial. The bible is testifying to a life that is governed by the Spirit.
    Yes! Exactly....

    My Church....


    TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!

    TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
    Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts.
    My Facebook page....

  10. #85
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    Despite all the theories about what "the perfect" is, the apparent history given within the epistles indicates that the sign gifts disappeared during Paul's wanderings. The total absence of any references to tongues and his inability to heal his bretheren speak as a testament that "the perfect" came while Paul was alive.

    That being the case, the discussion serves little purpose, but the indication that whatever he was expecting finally arrived.
    That is NOT the case! I do not have the time to research this right now, but here is a tad bit of documentation proving that at least one of the “sign gifts,” the gift of tongues, did NOT disappear during Paul’ lifetime but has continued to be in operation throughout the history of the Church.

    Irenaeus wrote,

    “In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms ‘spiritual,’ they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.” (Against Heresies 5:6:1)

    Tertullian wrote,

    “But that we may now leave the subject of spiritual gifts, facts themselves will be enough to prove which of us acts rashly in claiming them for his God, and whether it is possible that they are opposed to our side, even if the Creator promised them for His Christ who is not yet revealed, as being destined only for the Jews, to have their operations in His time, in His Christ, and among His people. Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer -only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God.” (Against Marcion, Chapter VIII)

    Saint Augustine wrote:

    “We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them by the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

    Later in church history we find this phenomenon reported among the following:

    • Saint Hildengard in the twelfth century.

    • The mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, the most notable of which was Saint Vincent Ferrer.

    • In the first half of the sixteenth century we find it reported about the two Catholic saints, Saint Francis Xavier and Saint Louis Bertrand. In the bull by which Bertrand was canonized for his success in missionary work we read, “to facilitate the work of converting the natives, the apostle was miraculously endowed with the gift of tongues.”

    • In Sourer’s History of the Christian Church we read, “It is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”

    • The Jansenists in the early 1700’s.

    • The Cevennes of the same period.

    • In the Encyclopedia Britannica we read of tongues “among the converts of Wesley and Whitefield,” and that John Wesley wrote a protest against a Dr. Middleton who wrote, “after the Apostolic time, there is not, in all history, one instance...of any person who had even exercised that gift (tongues).” Wesley replied, “Sir, your memory fails you again, it has been heard more than once no further off than the valleys of Dauphiny.”

    • The Society of Friends or Quakers in the seventeenth century,

    “While waiting upon the Lord in silence, as often we did for many hours together, we received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were glad and our tongues loosed and our mouth opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave us utterance, and as His Spirit led us, which was poured down upon us, on sons and daughters, and the glory of the Father was revealed. And then began we to sing praise to the Lord God Almighty and to the Lamb forever.”

    • The Shakers in the eighteenth century,

    “Some who attended confessed their sins aloud, crying for mercy; some went into a trance-like state in which they saw visions and received prophecies of Christ's imminent second coming. Others shouted and danced for joy because they believed that the day was at hand for wars to cease and God's kingdom on earth to begin.”

    • The Irvingites in the early nineteenth century among whom speaking in tongues during church services was the norm,

    In 1830 Mary Campbell was reported to have spoken in tongues and prophesized.

    • Among those to whom Dwight L. Moody ministered,

    Dr. R. Boyd wrote in 1873, “When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association in Victoria Hall, London, I found the meeting on fire: The young men were speaking in tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon”

    • In 1875 R.B. Swan wrote that he and others spoke in tongues.

    • In 1879 we read of W.J. Walthall receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

    • In 1880 in Kara Kara, Armenia, a Pentecostal movement broke out with speaking in tongues.

    • Also in 1880 speaking in tongues was reported in Switzerland.


    The following very ancient writings may be of interest to you:

    The Shepherd of Hermas wrote, “Try the man who has the Divine Spirit by his life. First, he who has the Divine Spirit proceeding from above is meek, and peaceable, and humble, and refrains from, all iniquity and the vain desire of this world, and contents himself with fewer wants than those of other men, and when asked he makes no reply; nor does he speak privately, nor when man wishes the spirit to speak does the Holy Spirit speak, but it speaks only when God wishes it to speak. When, then, a man having the Divine Spirit comes into an assembly of righteous men who have faith in the Divine Spirit, and this assembly of men offers up prayer to God, then the angel of the prophetic Spirit, who is destined for him, fills the man; and the man being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaks to the multitude as the Lord wishes. Thus, then, will the Spirit of Divinity become manifest. Whatever power therefore comes from the Spirit of Divinity belongs to the Lord.” (Commandment 11)

    Irenaeus wrote, “Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them on account of such miraculous interpositions. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others].” (Against Heresies 2:32:4)

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Thank you, Jemand. Great post.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: That which is perfect

    New question for those who maintain they exegete and follow ONLY the scriptures. How do you justify your pov that the perfect = the completed scriptures in light of the Greek gender rules? The noun that an adjective describes must be the same in gender, ie a neuter adjective can only describe a neuter noun. Teleios is a neuter adjective. What neuter noun does it describe?

    scriptures (graphe) - feminine noun
    letter, epistle (epistole) - feminine noun
    scroll, books (biblion) - neuter noun

    Ok, so we've found a neuter noun. Let's plug it into Paul's words and see what we get:


    Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when the book has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    Seriously?!? When the Book comes, then we will see face to face? Then we will know (God) as He fully knows us? What earthly good would this news do the Corinthian saints, who would all be dead before the Book came? Paul would, in effect, be saying, "When God's book comes out (in a couple or three hundred years), they y'all will have no worries, because all will be made clear to you...to the point that you will know God as well as He knows you!" Oh happy day! I bet they were jumpin' pews and shoutin' hallelujah!

    W

    PS: Paul didn't use biblion for a reason. It is inapplicable!
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    New question for those who maintain they exegete and follow ONLY the scriptures. How do you justify your pov that the perfect = the completed scriptures in light of the Greek gender rules? The noun that an adjective describes must be the same in gender, ie a neuter adjective can only describe a neuter noun. Teleios is a neuter adjective. What neuter noun does it describe?

    scriptures (graphe) - feminine noun
    letter, epistle (epistole) - feminine noun
    scroll, books (biblion) - neuter noun

    Ok, so we've found a neuter noun. Let's plug it into Paul's words and see what we get:


    Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when the book has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    Seriously?!? When the Book comes, then we will see face to face? Then we will know (God) as He fully knows us? What earthly good would this news do the Corinthian saints, who would all be dead before the Book came? Paul would, in effect, be saying, "When God's book comes out (in a couple or three hundred years), they y'all will have no worries, because all will be made clear to you...to the point that you will know God as well as He knows you!" Oh happy day! I bet they were jumpin' pews and shoutin' hallelujah!

    W

    PS: Paul didn't use biblion for a reason. It is inapplicable!
    Without regard to the question of whether "the perfect" is the scriptures, and simply addressing the Greek text, the adjective does not need to be in concord with any other noun if the adjective itself is acting as a substantive. In this case, in 1Cor. 13:10, the adjective "teleion" is a substantive, acting as a noun rather than an adjective.

    Consider the adjective "good" for instance. We can talk about the "good book," or the "good boy" or the "good apple", which is using the term "good" to describe these things in positive way. But sometimes we want to talk about "THE good" In this case the term "good" no longer functions as an adjective; functioning as a noun instead. We talk about "THE good" when we want to talk about the ultimate wellbeing of a person.

    So then, even though "teleion" typically functions as an adjective, in this case it functions as a noun. It's in the nominative case because it's the subject of the sentence and it is not modifying another noun, it stands alone to act as the subject.

  14. #89
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    That is NOT the case! I do not have the time to research this right now, but here is a tad bit of documentation proving that at least one of the “sign gifts,” the gift of tongues, did NOT disappear during Paul’ lifetime but has continued to be in operation throughout the history of the Church.

    Irenaeus wrote,

    “In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms ‘spiritual,’ they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.” (Against Heresies 5:6:1)

    Tertullian wrote,

    “But that we may now leave the subject of spiritual gifts, facts themselves will be enough to prove which of us acts rashly in claiming them for his God, and whether it is possible that they are opposed to our side, even if the Creator promised them for His Christ who is not yet revealed, as being destined only for the Jews, to have their operations in His time, in His Christ, and among His people. Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer -only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God.” (Against Marcion, Chapter VIII)

    Saint Augustine wrote:

    “We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them by the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

    Later in church history we find this phenomenon reported among the following:

    • Saint Hildengard in the twelfth century.

    • The mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, the most notable of which was Saint Vincent Ferrer.

    • In the first half of the sixteenth century we find it reported about the two Catholic saints, Saint Francis Xavier and Saint Louis Bertrand. In the bull by which Bertrand was canonized for his success in missionary work we read, “to facilitate the work of converting the natives, the apostle was miraculously endowed with the gift of tongues.”

    • In Sourer’s History of the Christian Church we read, “It is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”

    • The Jansenists in the early 1700’s.

    • The Cevennes of the same period.

    • In the Encyclopedia Britannica we read of tongues “among the converts of Wesley and Whitefield,” and that John Wesley wrote a protest against a Dr. Middleton who wrote, “after the Apostolic time, there is not, in all history, one instance...of any person who had even exercised that gift (tongues).” Wesley replied, “Sir, your memory fails you again, it has been heard more than once no further off than the valleys of Dauphiny.”

    • The Society of Friends or Quakers in the seventeenth century,

    “While waiting upon the Lord in silence, as often we did for many hours together, we received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were glad and our tongues loosed and our mouth opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave us utterance, and as His Spirit led us, which was poured down upon us, on sons and daughters, and the glory of the Father was revealed. And then began we to sing praise to the Lord God Almighty and to the Lamb forever.”

    • The Shakers in the eighteenth century,

    “Some who attended confessed their sins aloud, crying for mercy; some went into a trance-like state in which they saw visions and received prophecies of Christ's imminent second coming. Others shouted and danced for joy because they believed that the day was at hand for wars to cease and God's kingdom on earth to begin.”

    • The Irvingites in the early nineteenth century among whom speaking in tongues during church services was the norm,

    In 1830 Mary Campbell was reported to have spoken in tongues and prophesized.

    • Among those to whom Dwight L. Moody ministered,

    Dr. R. Boyd wrote in 1873, “When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association in Victoria Hall, London, I found the meeting on fire: The young men were speaking in tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon”

    • In 1875 R.B. Swan wrote that he and others spoke in tongues.

    • In 1879 we read of W.J. Walthall receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

    • In 1880 in Kara Kara, Armenia, a Pentecostal movement broke out with speaking in tongues.

    • Also in 1880 speaking in tongues was reported in Switzerland.


    The following very ancient writings may be of interest to you:

    The Shepherd of Hermas wrote, “Try the man who has the Divine Spirit by his life. First, he who has the Divine Spirit proceeding from above is meek, and peaceable, and humble, and refrains from, all iniquity and the vain desire of this world, and contents himself with fewer wants than those of other men, and when asked he makes no reply; nor does he speak privately, nor when man wishes the spirit to speak does the Holy Spirit speak, but it speaks only when God wishes it to speak. When, then, a man having the Divine Spirit comes into an assembly of righteous men who have faith in the Divine Spirit, and this assembly of men offers up prayer to God, then the angel of the prophetic Spirit, who is destined for him, fills the man; and the man being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaks to the multitude as the Lord wishes. Thus, then, will the Spirit of Divinity become manifest. Whatever power therefore comes from the Spirit of Divinity belongs to the Lord.” (Commandment 11)

    Irenaeus wrote, “Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them on account of such miraculous interpositions. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others].” (Against Heresies 2:32:4)
    Interesting how many of these are Catholic based..
    So Catholics can speak in tongues..
    Muslims can speak in tongues..
    Hindus can speak in tongues...

    It seems to go with just about any religion you want and will make you better with God for doing so.
    Tongues I guess is the great unifier of the worlds religions.
    If we all jabber in tongues, then at least we will not understand each other to conflict over doctrinal issues.

  15. #90
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    Re: That which is perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Without regard to the question of whether "the perfect" is the scriptures, and simply addressing the Greek text, the adjective does not need to be in concord with any other noun if the adjective itself is acting as a substantive. In this case, in 1Cor. 13:10, the adjective "teleion" is a substantive, acting as a noun rather than an adjective.

    Consider the adjective "good" for instance. We can talk about the "good book," or the "good boy" or the "good apple", which is using the term "good" to describe these things in positive way. But sometimes we want to talk about "THE good" In this case the term "good" no longer functions as an adjective; functioning as a noun instead. We talk about "THE good" when we want to talk about the ultimate wellbeing of a person.

    So then, even though "teleion" typically functions as an adjective, in this case it functions as a noun. It's in the nominative case because it's the subject of the sentence and it is not modifying another noun, it stands alone to act as the subject.
    Hi BroRog,

    I don't have the background or education to respond to this. I'll leave that to Jemand.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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