That which is perfect

[BroRog]

So, it seems to me that the coming of the "the perfect" relates to when we are changed and perfected in the future at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).

Again, this interpretation does not fit the text. Notice how Paul opens up this section.

All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

He wants to tell the Corinthians about a more excellent way. A way is not a destination; it's a journey. Sometimes a "way" is a method or style of doing something. it indicates a process or a method. The way we do things is the way we act, behave, during our life now, not the ultimate reward later. Sometimes a "way" is a road, a course or a route we take. The more excellent "way" is the more excellent journey, the more excellent course, the more excellent manner of living life. Paul isn't saying, "If you do these things, you will become mature in the future." No, he is saying instead, "you need to be mature NOW. You need to take the more excellent way NOW. You need to take a course of action NOW, in which love is characteristic of your manner of life, NOW. Do it Now.

I can speak with the tongues of angels but do now have love, NOW; or I can speak with the tongues of Angels with Love NOW. One course of action is immature. The other course of action is mature. One course of action reveals a person who only sees himself in a distorted mirror; the other course of action reveals a person who sees himself as other see him. Paul isn't saying, "what a glorious time in the future when we will all be perfect." He is saying, "I exhort you to follow a more excellent path in how you live your life NOW." Yes, there is a glorious future ahead of us. But there is a more excellent way to live NOW.

[BroRog]

[COLOR="#000080"]In verse 12, Paul continues his thought in verse 10, and writes that in our present state of fully formed human beings, we (including himself) see in a mirror dimly, but when the perfect (the totality, a quantity rather than a quality) comes, we shall see face to face. We shall no longer be looking at ourselves in a state of unclearness, but rather we will be looking at Christ face to face, and we will know fully as we also have been fully. Such a reality will not occur until the Second Advent!

This is just where Mr Thompson goes off the track, seemingly unaccustomed to how Paul makes his arguments. It's easy to misunderstand Paul's use of the first person perspective, during which we think he is speaking autobiographically.

For instance, he speaks with the first person perspective in the following sentence.

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

While his statement is certainly true of himself, it's also and at the same time, universally true of most everyone. Most people grow up. Most people become adults. Sometimes we act like a child, but for the most part all of us eventually grow up and act like an adult. He doesn't intend to be autobiographical here, as if this was his unique experience. He is using the first person, active voice, to bring the utmost clarity to his argument, and to invite the reader into the picture. When Paul says, "When I was a child . . ." He means, "when we all were children . . ." What he says about himself, all of us adults can say the same thing about ourselves. He means to draw his readers to a conclusion based on a common connection. "I'm an adult and you are an adult. Right?" That's how Paul often makes his case -- inviting the reader to participate.

He says,

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Again, here Mr. Thompson has assumed that Paul is speaking autobiographically since he is couching his argument in the first person. He seems to think, as many readers do, that when Paul says, "I know in part . . ." he is talking about himself, that is, "I Paul, know in part." Having mistakenly understood Paul to be speaking autobiographically, saying that HE knows in part, Mr. Thompson understands Paul's next statement autobiographically as if Paul is saying, "In some future time, I Paul, will know fully." This has naturally lead Mr. Thompson to assume that Paul refers to himself when he says, "We (myself included) see in a mirror darkly . . ."

But Paul isn't speaking autobiographically. He is using the first person perspective to indicate the universal person, which is why he so easily and readily switches back and forth between the first person singular "I" and the first person plural "we." "For WE see in a mirror dimly . . .", and "now I know in part . . ." The two are interchangeable. " . . . but now I (not Paul exclusively, but any reader) know in part, but then I (not Paul exclusively, but any reader) will know fully. The mistake Mr. Thompson and others make is to assume that since Paul is speaking from the first person perspective about a time in the future, that the event of being fully known hasn't taken place for him personally. It's easy to make this mistake if I misunderstand the terms "now" and "then" in terms of time.

The incorrect assumption:

NOW = At the present time or moment:
THEN = Some time in the future

Paul means to say:

NOW = the present condition or circumstance
ThEN = the change in conditions or circumstances.

This is how he seems to hear Paul

at the present time or moment I know in part, but at some time off in the future I will know fully

In my opinion, Paul is saying,


when I am giving a prophecy without Love, I know in part, but when I give a prophecy with Love I will know fully . . . When I (the reader) don't have love, I know in part, and when I (the reader) have love, I know fully as I am known by others.

[Watchman]

I'm behind in reading this thread, but would like to thank everyone for their participation. I've been involved in a bunch of threads on other boards re: the perfect, and this is the best one so far. Many good points being discussed.

W

[Colight]

when I am giving a prophecy without Love, I know in part, but when I give a prophecy with Love I will know fully . . . When I (the reader) don't have love, I know in part, and when I (the reader) have love, I know fully as I am known by others.

I think you may be getting off track here..
The focus is not love, rather the complete vs the incomplete.
Love does not make prophecy and knowledge complete.
knowledge is still knowledge, incomplete knowledge given with all the love in the world and heaven would still be incomplete knowledge.
Pauls Goal is to show that in his day.. there was going to be a completion of that knowledge.. of the mystery doctrine of the church.
Then people would be able to know that doctrine completely rather the incomplete shadows of knowledge they was currently under..

[percho]

Ok...
What does that have to do with 1 Cor 13...

Does every time they mention water in the bible should we think of baptism?

No but my post was in your response to Jer I believe in your post 143, from your post: As I have asked you before..

How do you get 2nd advent when the the Perfect is aimed at the completion of the partial.

In whom ye also, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13

Which is fine and wonderful, however is it as perfect as what follows and is what follows speaking of the appearing again of Christ?

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:14

Will the perfect have then come?

[Colight]

No but my post was in your response to Jer I believe in your post 143, from your post: As I have asked you before..

How do you get 2nd advent when the the Perfect is aimed at the completion of the partial.

In whom ye also, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13

Which is fine and wonderful, however is it as perfect as what follows and is what follows speaking of the appearing again of Christ?

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:14

Will the perfect have then come?

Yes but the context is in 1 Corinthians and setting as to What "the complete" is relating to...

Why are you jumping to Ephesians?

[percho]

Yes but the context is in 1 Corinthians and setting as to What "the complete" is relating to...

Why are you jumping to Ephesians?

Because these passages show just when: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

[Colight]

Because these passages show just when: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That which is complete.
What is partial was the gifts of Knowledge and Prophecy.
We have the complete doctrine for the Church in the New testament epistles.
The New testament is the complete.

[glf]

Joshua 1:8 kjv This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
**Too much scripture??? Yiiikes!!! Do you think Joshua read too much, since the Lord commanded him to not just read, but to meditate on the 1st five books day and night and that word was not to depart from his mouth???**

Ps 119:7 kjv Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Ps 119:11 kjv Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Ps 119: 49 kjv Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.
Ps 119:50 kjv This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Is 28:9,10 kjv Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk and drawn away from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

Is 55:10-12 kjv For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Mt 4:4 kjv But He answered and said, It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Jn 6:63 kjv It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit and they are life.

Rom 10:17 kjv So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 kjv Having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.

2 Pet 2:2 kjv As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby:



2 Pet 1:3,4 kjv According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Cor 1:20 kjv For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2 Tim 3:16,17 kjv All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Cor 10:4,5 kjv For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Eph 6:17 kjv And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
**the battle for holiness is waged within our minds. The mind set upon the flesh is death, but the mind set upon the Spirit is life and peace

Heb 8:8 kjv For finding fault with them. he saith, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord, for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

**To say that it is the Holy Spirit that moves within us to transform us with the upward call of God in Christ is to be both right and wrong. The Holy Spirit's ministry is to take the logos scripture that we put into our minds and then to illuminate it; here a little, and there a little, so that that scripture becomes the rhema word of the God to that one and also the Spirit writes that rhema word upon the tables of our hearts and minds, again here a little, and there a little, thus fulfilling the Lord's NT promise. This means that the Holy Spirit uses the scripture that we put into our minds to minister Jesus to us, Spirit to spirit; to give and increase our faith(2Cor10:15); to increase our knowledge of doctrine; to reprove us when we're wrong and shows us how to correct our way; to instruct us in the way of righteousness and good works; to bring us to spiritual maturity and to be used as a weapon against the wiles of the evil one and his minion. What this means is that the Lord is found in his own word by the ministry of the Holy Spirit and that that word is alive and active, sharper than any two-edged sword and is able to divide between the thought and the intent in the heart of man. The Lord is sovereign and will move as he wills and tells us in scripture that we are known of him and that we hear his voice; so that he may give some specific communication regarding his will in regard to a believer's particular situation**

**Now to address the point of your post**

1 Cor 13:12 kjv For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
**If the NT scripture is the perfect that is referred to here, then I should know the Lord as fully as I myself am known of the Lord, which we do not as of yet. I should see Jesus face to face, but I do not, sadly. Jesus come quickly! And we should be able to see the truth of doctrine clearly, but we don't. The Greek root for the last two words to "know" in this verse is epiginosko which is composed of two Greek words epi which means through and ginosko which is to know something or someone from a personal relationship. ie... When that which is perfect is come, we will know the Lord through and through as he knows us through and through and this knowledge is based not upon study or deduction but rather on the basis of a personal relationship. Sadly for now, while we are present in the body, we are absent from the Lord and therefore we walk by faith and not by sight.
Another point is that if the gifts ended when the NT scriptures were completed, then we would have had writings from the early church fathers, like Ignacious, describing how all their gifts stopped or at least how no more people were receiving any gifts of the Spirit, but we do not see anything of the sort from their writings**

Eph 4:11-16 kjv It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

**Now to address the reason we we're given the gifts of the Spirit in the first place. The gifts of the Spirit were given to us to prepare us for the work of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach the unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God; and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ which is for the work of the ministry until we all reach unity in the faith. Has the entire body of Christ at any time in its past reached the unity of faith in the knowledge of the Son of God? Has at any time the entire body of Christ been mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ at one time? Because if any of us are still infants spiritually? Or if any of us through the last two thousand years have stopped being blown here and there by every wind of teaching, having the complete doctrinal truth? Or at any time has all of the body worked together with each person doing his or her share to build up the body of Christ in love, then the purpose of the gifts have not been realized. In fact, we can see from the Church in Corinth that operating with the gifts of the Spirit does not necessarily lead even a small group of believers to work together in love or even to reach spiritual maturity, which seems to me to be required at a minimum for the goal of the above verse to be reached**

Rom 12:3-6 kjv For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith.

Gal 3:2-5 kjv This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:14 kjv That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

**The point of the above verses is that the gifts of the Spirit operate by faith! To deny that the gifts are for today is to live a life with a gift that has been given to each one of us and yet, not to even know what that gift might be. How sad is that? Fluency comes by use... Now even though we are all given a gift of the Spirit as the Lord wills; we are encouraged to desire to prophecy or to desire the best gifts. So that even though you may have one gift, the Lord desires that we ask him in faith for the more better gifts of the Spirit too**

1 Cor 14:37-40 kjv If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

**According to your teaching, this verse is not applicable for today. Yiikes, that such convoluted reasoning can make God's word to be of no account, sadly. Just like Jesus said in Mk7:14 kjv Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. What a fearful place to be**

**The only reason we might have been taught that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today is to excuse that teacher from having to use their gift by faith**

**Our joining to the Lord by faith in Jesus Christ removed the sins that we have committed from out of the way of our holy Father. Once that is accomplished, we are able to have a relationship with the Lord by faith. The Lord speaks to us through the scriptures and we speak to him through our prayers. This is a two-way communication just like any relationship has to be that we may have with any other person**

1Jn 3:19-23 kjv And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

**One might say that a clear conscience empowers full power faith!**

[John146]

Again, this interpretation does not fit the text.

Yes, it does and it has been explained how it fits.

Notice how Paul opens up this section.

All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

He wants to tell the Corinthians about a more excellent way. A way is not a destination; it's a journey. Sometimes a "way" is a method or style of doing something. it indicates a process or a method. The way we do things is the way we act, behave, during our life now, not the ultimate reward later. Sometimes a "way" is a road, a course or a route we take. The more excellent "way" is the more excellent journey, the more excellent course, the more excellent manner of living life. Paul isn't saying, "If you do these things, you will become mature in the future." No, he is saying instead, "you need to be mature NOW. You need to take the more excellent way NOW. You need to take a course of action NOW, in which love is characteristic of your manner of life, NOW. Do it Now.

I can speak with the tongues of angels but do now have love, NOW; or I can speak with the tongues of Angels with Love NOW. One course of action is immature. The other course of action is mature. One course of action reveals a person who only sees himself in a distorted mirror; the other course of action reveals a person who sees himself as other see him. Paul isn't saying, "what a glorious time in the future when we will all be perfect." He is saying, "I exhort you to follow a more excellent path in how you live your life NOW." Yes, there is a glorious future ahead of us. But there is a more excellent way to live NOW.

I think you need to read the text from 1 Cor 13 again more carefully. You're saying a lot about what is true NOW, but look at what this verse says was true for Paul and other believers NOW:

1 Cor 13:12 For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Notice that Paul said "now WE see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face". He was including himself among those who saw "through a glass, darkly" but here you are acting as if he was no longer seeing through a glass darkly. No, that is not what he said at all. You're acting as if he said "now I see face to face" when instead he said "but then face to face". When is then? Not NOW. He contrasted THEN with NOW but you somehow have THEN being the same as NOW. Then he said "now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.". But you are acting as if he said he already knew as he was known. No, that is not what he said at all. Again, he said "NOW I know in part, but THEN shall I know even as also I am known. Again, when is THEN? Not NOW. So, when will it be that we will see "face to face" and know even as we are known? The following verse tells us:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The perfect has not yet come but it will come when Christ returns. We will see Him face to face. At that point we will no longer see through a glass, darkly. Everything will be made known at that point. There will be no more mysteries at that point. We will see Christ as He is in all His glory at that point. Paul wasn't talking about a journey at all in 1 Cor 13, he's contrasting how things are now (seeing through a glass, darkly and knowing in part) with how things will be at a future time (seeing face to face and knowing just as we are known).

[John146]

He says,

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Again, here Mr. Thompson has assumed that Paul is speaking autobiographically since he is couching his argument in the first person. He seems to think, as many readers do, that when Paul says, "I know in part . . ." he is talking about himself, that is, "I Paul, know in part." Having mistakenly understood Paul to be speaking autobiographically, saying that HE knows in part, Mr. Thompson understands Paul's next statement autobiographically as if Paul is saying, "In some future time, I Paul, will know fully." This has naturally lead Mr. Thompson to assume that Paul refers to himself when he says, "We (myself included) see in a mirror darkly . . ."

LOL. How silly of him to assume that when Paul said "I" he was talking about himself and when he said "we" he was including himself. How could he have thought such a thing?

Here is a statement for you to analyze: I think we are not on the same page regarding this topic. Do you think it would make sense for me to tell you that the "I" in that statement doesn't refer to me (John146) and that the word "we" in that statement doesn't include me (John146)?

But Paul isn't speaking autobiographically. He is using the first person perspective to indicate the universal person, which is why he so easily and readily switches back and forth between the first person singular "I" and the first person plural "we." "For WE see in a mirror dimly . . .", and "now I know in part . . ."

Did the "we" not include Paul? If it did then why are you trying to argue that he did not see through a mirror dimly? And did the "I" not at least include Paul himself? If so then why are you trying to argue that Paul did not know in part at that time?

The two are interchangeable. " . . . but now I (not Paul exclusively, but any reader) know in part, but then I (not Paul exclusively, but any reader) will know fully.

If it's not Paul exclusively then it would have to at least include Paul, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for him to say "I". He clearly was referring to something that was true of himself even if it wasn't true only of himself. But you seem to think it wasn't even true of Paul which would turn his use of the word "I" there into complete nonsense.

The mistake Mr. Thompson and others make is to assume that since Paul is speaking from the first person perspective about a time in the future, that the event of being fully known hasn't taken place for him personally. It's easy to make this mistake if I misunderstand the terms "now" and "then" in terms of time.

The incorrect assumption:

NOW = At the present time or moment:
THEN = Some time in the future

Paul means to say:

NOW = the present condition or circumstance
ThEN = the change in conditions or circumstances.

This is how he seems to hear Paul

at the present time or moment I know in part, but at some time off in the future I will know fully

I completely disagree with your definitions of the words now and then. I don't believe such definitions of the Greek words they were translated from even exist (now = the Greek word arti and then = the Greek word tote). I challenge you to find any other verses in scripture where those words are used in the sense that you think they are used in 1 Cor 13:12.

In my opinion, Paul is saying,


when I am giving a prophecy without Love, I know in part, but when I give a prophecy with Love I will know fully . . . When I (the reader) don't have love, I know in part, and when I (the reader) have love, I know fully as I am known by others.

Turning "I" into the reader rather than Paul himself has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on here. Sorry, but every time Paul used the word "I" he was referring to himself and that should be obvious.

[Jemand]

Interesting how many of these are Catholic based..
So Catholics can speak in tongues..
Muslims can speak in tongues..
Hindus can speak in tongues...

It seems to go with just about any religion you want and will make you better with God for doing so.
Tongues I guess is the great unifier of the worlds religions.
If we all jabber in tongues, then at least we will not understand each other to conflict over doctrinal issues.

That which is complete.
What is partial was the gifts of Knowledge and Prophecy.
We have the complete doctrine for the Church in the New testament epistles.
The New testament is the complete.

1 Cor. 13:8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

In verse 8 above, it is said that three—not two—gifts will be done away. Is it your belief that the gifts of knowledge and prophesy will be done away, but not the gift of tongues?

Following this paragraph, I am including a link to another article published in “The Master’s Seminary Journal.” In this article, the author, Nathan Busenitz (currently working to complete his Th.D. in church history, with a focus on patristic theology), fully accepts the historical fact that the gift of tongues was operational in the post-apostolic church. He argues, however, that, unlike in present day Pentecostalism, the gift of tongues of which many of the early church fathers wrote was of one kind rather than two. That is, that the gift of tongues in the early church was always for the purpose of evangelism or the edification of the church rather than for personal use. This article includes numerous citations from the early church fathers in which they wrote of the contemporaneous use of the gift, incontrovertibly proving that the gift of tongues was still in operation for at least several centuries after the last of the 27 books in our New Testament were written. Unfortunately, however, the author of the article does not appear to be aware of the very numerous writings from the centuries of the second millennium of the church prior to the 20th century.


http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf

[BroRog]

Yes, it does and it has been explained how it fits.

I beg to differ.

I think you need to read the text from 1 Cor 13 again more carefully. You're saying a lot about what is true NOW, but look at what this verse says was true for Paul and other believers NOW:

1 Cor 13:12 For NOW we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: NOW I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Notice that Paul said "now WE see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face". He was including himself among those who saw "through a glass, darkly" but here you are acting as if he was no longer seeing through a glass darkly. No, that is not what he said at all. You're acting as if he said "now I see face to face" when instead he said "but then face to face". When is then? Not NOW. He contrasted THEN with NOW but you somehow have THEN being the same as NOW. Then he said "now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.". But you are acting as if he said he already knew as he was known. No, that is not what he said at all. Again, he said "NOW I know in part, but THEN shall I know even as also I am known. Again, when is THEN? Not NOW. So, when will it be that we will see "face to face" and know even as we are known?

I explained this earlier, but in case you just jumped in at this point, let me point out verse 11 again, which Paul uses to illustrate his point.

11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Notice that Paul speaks in the past tense about doing away with childish things. When he became a man he did away with childish things. This clearly places his own experience in the past, not in some glorious future to come. This illustration explains what Paul means by "the perfect" and how the perfect does away with the partial. The Greek word translated "perfect" is "teleios", which has a range of meaning, not just one meaning: physically perfect, morally perfect, genuine, mature, fully grown, adult. Thus Paul feels it would help his readers to know which meaning he intends. His illustration of a child growing up to maturity indicates that he is talking about maturing to adulthood and how mature adults act.

You asked about the THEN and the NOW. These adverbs refer back to his illustration and relates to the moment when one goes from being a child (the NOW) to becoming an adult (the THEN), which itself is intended to illustrate how the practice of the gifts with love is like a child who has grown up. The NOW relates to the Corinthian Christian who has not yet matured and adopted the more excellent way. The THEN relates to the Corinthian Christian who, taking Paul's advice, adopts the more excellent way. And the difference between a beginning believer and a mature believer is that beginning believer sees himself as if looking in a distorted mirror; but the mature believer sees himself as others see him, i.e. face-to-face.

Accordingly, then, Paul is not including himself among those who see in a distorted mirror. He has already matured and he already has taken the more excellent road. He already seems himself the way others see him, and this self-knowledge already informs his perspective on his relationship to other human beings, which already motivates him to love others during the use of his spiritual gifts. A man (or woman) doesn't need to wait until Jesus returns to see himself as others see him. He can do that right now if he is willing to accept the truth wherever it leads.

[Eyelog]

I beg to differ.

I explained this earlier, but in case you just jumped in at this point, let me point out verse 11 again, which Paul uses to illustrate his point.

11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Notice that Paul speaks in the past tense about doing away with childish things. When he became a man he did away with childish things. This clearly places his own experience in the past, not in some glorious future to come. This illustration explains what Paul means by "the perfect" and how the perfect does away with the partial. The Greek word translated "perfect" is "teleios", which has a range of meaning, not just one meaning: physically perfect, morally perfect, genuine, mature, fully grown, adult. Thus Paul feels it would help his readers to know which meaning he intends. His illustration of a child growing up to maturity indicates that he is talking about maturing to adulthood and how mature adults act.

You asked about the THEN and the NOW. These adverbs refer back to his illustration and relates to the moment when one goes from being a child (the NOW) to becoming an adult (the THEN), which itself is intended to illustrate how the practice of the gifts with love is like a child who has grown up. The NOW relates to the Corinthian Christian who has not yet matured and adopted the more excellent way. The THEN relates to the Corinthian Christian who, taking Paul's advice, adopts the more excellent way. And the difference between a beginning believer and a mature believer is that beginning believer sees himself as if looking in a distorted mirror; but the mature believer sees himself as others see him, i.e. face-to-face.

Accordingly, then, Paul is not including himself among those who see in a distorted mirror. He has already matured and he already has taken the more excellent road. He already seems himself the way others see him, and this self-knowledge already informs his perspective on his relationship to other human beings, which already motivates him to love others during the use of his spiritual gifts. A man (or woman) doesn't need to wait until Jesus returns to see himself as others see him. He can do that right now if he is willing to accept the truth wherever it leads.

Interesting. {be careful, this is my 666th post!}

[Eyelog]

1 Cor. 13:8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

In verse 8 above, it is said that three—not two—gifts will be done away. Is it your belief that the gifts of knowledge and prophesy will be done away, but not the gift of tongues?

Following this paragraph, I am including a link to another article published in “The Master’s Seminary Journal.” In this article, the author, Nathan Busenitz (currently working to complete his Th.D. in church history, with a focus on patristic theology), fully accepts the historical fact that the gift of tongues was operational in the post-apostolic church. He argues, however, that, unlike in present day Pentecostalism, the gift of tongues of which many of the early church fathers wrote was of one kind rather than two. That is, that the gift of tongues in the early church was always for the purpose of evangelism or the edification of the church rather than for personal use. This article includes numerous citations from the early church fathers in which they wrote of the contemporaneous use of the gift, incontrovertibly proving that the gift of tongues was still in operation for at least several centuries after the last of the 27 books in our New Testament were written. Unfortunately, however, the author of the article does not appear to be aware of the very numerous writings from the centuries of the second millennium of the church prior to the 20th century.


http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf

Interesting. {Whew, I got past my 666th post without postin g the mark of the beast on anyone. Now I will decline and return to Valinor where I will continue to reign as an elf among elves.}