Doesn't Luke 17 place the AOD around the time of the 2nd coming?

[billy-brown 2]

What do you make of the following passage?

Matthew 24:.37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you then conclude this was meaning 70 AD? The reason I ask is because of the following.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


Let's look at that in context.

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back

Verse 31 begins with...In that day. That has to be referring back to verse 30. Verse 30 has to be referring back to Luke 17:26-27.

Also in verse 31 we see this...he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

The passages above deals with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of our current age--and not AD 70 and so on. But the issue is here below:

Now we need a parallel accountto compare that with.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


IMO it seems ludicrous to conclude Luke 17:31 is not the same event as Matthew 24:17-18. Notice where Matthew 24 places this time...When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

Are you with me so far? Let's see if you are. What overall conclusions would you come to, based on what I presented here? I mean besides I don't know what I'm talking about. That doesn't count. We'll just keep that part a secret. No one else needs to know but you and I.

LOL

Matt. 24:15-18 is not parallel with Luke 17:31 (and the context) at all. Why?

Well, because Luke 17:31 (and the context) is using the experiences of Noah and Lot to teach about total destruction of the earth at the end of this age:

Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

And the end of this age features the return of Christ for the events of the 7th trumpet of Rev. 11:18. In other words, the verses above from Luke 17:28:33 are focusing on the "total destruction" aspect of the judgment destruction BY FIRE at the Second Coming of Christ--and not that the judgment BY FIRE/BRIMSTONE is "localized" to a few cities and so on.

On the other hand, Matt. 24:15-18 comes under the following caveat verses; therefore, it deals with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple of those days:

Matt. 24
32“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yes?

[warfrog]

Billy, what is the meaning of the parable of the fig tree that you posted above?

[billy-brown 2]

Billy, what is the meaning of the parable of the fig tree that you posted above?

Well, does not it mean what is stated here?

Luke 21
29Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

In other words, Jesus is teaching us about trees generally . . .

[warfrog]

??? so its a parable on trees? im confused. What do you think the parable means?

[divaD]

The passages above deals with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of our current age--and not AD 70 and so on. But the issue is here below:



LOL

Matt. 24:15-18 is not parallel with Luke 17:31 (and the context) at all. Why?

Well, because Luke 17:31 (and the context) is using the experiences of Noah and Lot to teach about total destruction of the earth at the end of this age:

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seriously, you would conclude that the events in Matt 24 are not the same events as in Luke 17? But if they are the same events, and like I pointed out in the OP, notice where Matthew 24:17 places Luke 17:31. Are we to really believe that there would be two separate events where Jesus tells the same things almost identically?



Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Wouldn't this really confuse folks tho? Once again, notice the time surrounding these verses.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 17:31 In that day , he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

[billy-brown 2]

??? so its a parable on trees? im confused. What do you think the parable means?

Here are the parable verses again:

Luke 21
29Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.

In other words, when leaves come on the trees, it is a sign that summer is near.

(We need not read anything else into it that that.)

Thus, Jesus indicates the following:

Luke 21
31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

And so, what were the things that were to be seen by that generation? Here are some of the things below:

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21“Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

[billy-brown 2]

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seriously, you would conclude that the events in Matt 24 are not the same events as in Luke 17? But if they are the same events, and like I pointed out in the OP, notice where Matthew 24:17 places Luke 17:31. Are we to really believe that there would be two separate events where Jesus tells the same things almost identically?



Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Wouldn't this really confuse folks tho? Once again, notice the time surrounding these verses.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 17:31 In that day , he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

All of your questions above are standard questions in this dialectic.

(I used to ask them also . . .)

But the key to interpreting all of this is the disposition of the Temple of Herod. If we remember that, we will not be confused.

Remember, Jesus indicated the following in Matt. 24:34 (from your OP):

Matthew 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And so, this would mean that everything mentioned in the previous verses (Matt: 24:1-32 at minimum) would be seen by that generation; you know, the generation that was contemporary with Jesus while He was on the earth physically. And this would include the destruction of the Temple of Herod--which has happened already as you know.

On the other hand, Jesus was mentioning aspects of His glorious Second coming in verses AFTER Matt. 24:34; His Second Coming has not happened already. And the parallel passages that you are mentioning in your post should "map" clearly to it, yes?

Matt. 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And of course, Peter concurs with the passage above:

II Pet. 3
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Yes?

[divaD]

And so, this would mean that everything mentioned in the previous verses (Matt: 24:1-32 at minimum) would be seen by that generation; you know, the generation that was contemporary with Jesus while He was on the earth physically. And this would include the destruction of the Temple of Herod--which has happened already as you know.

On the other hand, Jesus was mentioning aspects of His glorious Second coming in verses AFTER Matt. 24:34; His Second Coming has not happened already. And the parallel passages that you are mentioning in your post should "map" clearly to it, yes?

Matt. 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Interestingly you seem to be placing Matt. 24:36-39 in regards to the 2nd coming. Let's then compare that to the context in Luke 17 again.


Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


This part you've already agreed is related to the 2nd coming. But notice what it is sandwiched in between.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

What do you conclude in that day in Luke 17:31 is referring to? Whatever you conclude it is referring to, it also has to be referring to the same in that day in the following.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

[billy-brown 2]

Interestingly you seem to be placing Matt. 24:36-39 in regards to the 2nd coming. Let's then compare that to the context in Luke 17 again.


Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


This part you've already agreed is related to the 2nd coming. But notice what it is sandwiched in between.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

What do you conclude in that day in Luke 17:31 is referring to? Whatever you conclude it is referring to, it also has to be referring to the same in that day in the following.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

LOL

Matt. 24:17 and Mark 13:15 are parallel, indeed. And of course, they have caveat passages that they come under:

Matthew 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13
29“Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
30“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

But Luke 17:24/31 do not come under those passages; why? Because the Luke 17:24/31 scriptures do not feature a destruction of the Temple of Herod.

And besides all this, the disciples of that first-century time were going to experience a LOT of tribulation "trouble" during the days to come from the Pharisees, and were duty-bound to seek "deliverance" from "trouble" through Christ Jesus the Deliverer and so on. Thus, this brings us back to Luke 17:22 and the context:

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Now, notice above that Jesus is indicating in Luke 17:22 to His disciples that "the days of the Son of Man" will not be seen by the disciples in the manner that many will suggest--with "see here" or "see there" elements and so on.

And "the days of the Son of Man" is taken up with aspects of "deliverance" and so on. And this is what the disciples would indeed be looking for, yes? The disciples would indeed want deliverance from the persecution and killing of those who were the "leadership" in Jerusalem: the Pharisees and chief priests.

Thus, Jesus tells the disciples that the "days of the Son of man" will feature "deliverance" for the disciples of that first-century time from their enemies--and it would occur like "lightning". And therefore, Luke 17:22-24 deals specifically with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple of Herod.

Yep.

Indeed, that "deliverance" will feature days of vengeance on the enemies of Christ, the prophets, and the disciples--as taught here:

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21“Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23“Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

In other words, the AOD is "the armies surrounding Jerusalem" of those days . . .

[Raybob]

...Seriously, you would conclude that the events in Matt 24 are not the same events as in Luke 17? But if they are the same events, and like I pointed out in the OP, notice where Matthew 24:17 places Luke 17:31. Are we to really believe that there would be two separate events where Jesus tells the same things almost identically?

Yes. The abomination that causes desolation is the sacrifice of animals at the temple, after the cross, and the "veil was rent". After the cross, any sacrifice of animals at the temple is a total abomination to the Lord, and it causes desolation (destruction) to those that do it.


Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[warfrog]

Here are the parable verses again:



In other words, when leaves come on the trees, it is a sign that summer is near.

(We need not read anything else into it that that.)

Thus, Jesus indicates the following:



And so, what were the things that were to be seen by that generation? Here are some of the things below:

so then i have a couple questions.

why after 2000 years if he was talking to that generation hasent the kingdom of god come? it was supposed to be near after all those thigs took place.

why has heaven and earth not passed away.

what was all the things that took place in 70 a.d or whatever that He said would take place, how do you explain the great amount of events Jesus described before this parable which He stated must take place first for the kingdom to be near?

[warfrog]

Yes. The abomination that causes desolation is the sacrifice of animals at the temple, after the cross, and the "veil was rent". After the cross, any sacrifice of animals at the temple is a total abomination to the Lord, and it causes desolation (destruction) to those that do it.


Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Why would a sacrifice be an abomintion if Gods temple resides in mans heart after Jesus's scrifice and the going out of the Helper to His body, the saints?

Wouldnt the abomination then be something else taking place to cause desolation in ones heart?
What does God say happens to those who take the mark of the beast or worship his image? Can they ever be saved? Can God ever reside in His temple if they do? No, doesnt that make it desolate? wouldnt that make the beast, the man of sin, an abomination to God?

[John 8:32]

Well, if Jerusalem is to be compassed with armies per these verses:



then the only people who can obey these words of Jesus are those who live in the Judea of those days . . . and that's not a handful of people . . .

And of course, that would include these people also (in bold):

What about people that are not native to Judea, but are in Judaea in that day? Don't they count?

[John 8:32]

Yes. The abomination that causes desolation is the sacrifice of animals at the temple, after the cross, and the "veil was rent". After the cross, any sacrifice of animals at the temple is a total abomination to the Lord, and it causes desolation (destruction) to those that do it.

You gotta scripture for this I assume.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Adn when were these 1260 days accomplished?

[John 8:32]

LOL

I always enjoy your supercilious, belittling replies.