Doesn't Luke 17 place the AOD around the time of the 2nd coming?

[divaD]

It should be clear that the tribulation He was talking about here would occur in Judea and within the city of Jerusalem. There's no mention here of any tribulation beyond Judea.

Personally I find it totally unreasonable to conclude, that in 70 AD, shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This earth age is not finished yet. This teaching makes it look like no one has much to worry about after 70 AD, since now the worst of the worst would be in the past. John 8:32 made an excellent point in post #57, when he stated..."This became possible in the early 1950's when the U.S. and the Soviet Union had stock piled enough weaponry to destroy all life off of the earth many times over". That is a spot on observation, not that I haven't made the same observations myself pretty much, which is why I fully agree with him.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This clearly proves your conclusions incorrect, unless you want to say that verse 2 occured in the first century, in 70 AD or so.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

If this is still future, but the following is past...shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...then someone isn't allowing the two testaments to interpret one another.

Look at this side by side.

then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What does it say at the end of that verse? no, nor ever shall be.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:


If the former is past, but the latter is still future, then how could Jesus be so incorrect in Matt 24, when He should have known the Scriptures in Daniel 12? Why would He contradict the Scriptures in Daniel 12, by saying that there is an even greater time of trouble than that, meaning what happened in 70 AD? I'm not saying what happened in 70 AD was not devastating. But why would it be even more devastating than the Holocaust for example? No one would conclude Jesus was referring to the Holocaust in Matt 24, even tho millions of innocent Jews were persecuted and lost their lives as well.

BTW, the main purpose for this thread was the timeline in the Luke 17 account, and what that tells us about the order of events in the other parallel accounts. It seems like no one is wanting to deal with that, besides BB2.

[John 8:32]

BTW, the main purpose for this thread was the timeline in the Luke 17 account, and what that tells us about the order of events in the other parallel accounts. It seems like no one is wanting to deal with that, besides BB2.

Sorry, it is easy to get sidetracked in details.

If we are talking about verses 22-37, I believe that we should connect these verses with Rev 12:14-17 in which the church is taken to a place of safety for 3-1/2 years (1260 days) but not all. There is a remnant that is left behind, not in the sense of a rapture, but probably in the light of Rev 3:7-22. These are Christians who keep the commandments of God and have the understanding or Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10 shows that the tesitimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

Not a rapture, but a promise of physical protection during the tribulation for certain of God's people.

[warfrog]

Sorry, it is easy to get sidetracked in details.

If we are talking about verses 22-37, I believe that we should connect these verses with Rev 12:14-17 in which the church is taken to a place of safety for 3-1/2 years (1260 days) but not all. There is a remnant that is left behind, not in the sense of a rapture, but probably in the light of Rev 3:7-22. These are Christians who keep the commandments of God and have the understanding or Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10 shows that the tesitimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

Not a rapture, but a promise of physical protection during the tribulation for certain of God's people.

I understand that certian people to be those who flee Judea immediatley when they see the abomination of desolation. I beleive that very moment and these people is the timing and the people Jesus spoke of whe He referred back to Daniel.
I beleive this is when the beast of the sea speaks out againts God, when the man of sin exalts himself and when the rest of the world who are not written in the Lambs Book of Life begin to worship him as God.

[divaD]

Sorry, it is easy to get sidetracked in details.

If we are talking about verses 22-37, I believe that we should connect these verses with Rev 12:14-17 in which the church is taken to a place of safety for 3-1/2 years (1260 days) but not all. There is a remnant that is left behind, not in the sense of a rapture, but probably in the light of Rev 3:7-22. These are Christians who keep the commandments of God and have the understanding or Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10 shows that the tesitimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

Not a rapture, but a promise of physical protection during the tribulation for certain of God's people.

Your discussions in this thread are on topic. What I meant was, the ones who are concluding the abomination in Mat 24 occurred in 70 AD, they are coming to their conclusions without dealing with the timeline in Luke 17, in relation to the parallel accounts. So no, you nor any of us are getting sidetracked here, it''s just that I'm wondering why no one is wanting to deal with the timeline in in Luke 17, in regards to their conclusions, besides BB2? So yes, carry on in the same manner, your input in this thread is on topic, as is everyone else's.

[John 8:32]

Your discussions in this thread are on topic. What I meant was, the ones who are concluding the abomination in Mat 24 occurred in 70 AD, they are coming to their conclusions without dealing with the timeline in Luke 17, in relation to the parallel accounts. So no, you nor any of us are getting sidetracked here, it''s just that I'm wondering why no one is wanting to deal with the timeline in in Luke 17, in regards to their conclusions, besides BB2? So yes, carry on in the same manner, your input in this thread is on topic, as is everyone else's.

My understanding of the timeline for this is when the AoD appears and it is just as the final 3-1/2 years occurs prior to Christ's coming and the end of this age.

[John 8:32]

I understand that certian people to be those who flee Judea immediatley when they see the abomination of desolation. I beleive that very moment and these people is the timing and the people Jesus spoke of whe He referred back to Daniel.
I beleive this is when the beast of the sea speaks out againts God, when the man of sin exalts himself and when the rest of the world who are not written in the Lambs Book of Life begin to worship him as God.

I am not sure how this plays out. Could the church be in Judea for 30 days or 75 days prior to the dead line? Could they be there helping to set up the work of the two witnesses? Could the ones who go in Rev 12:14 be the ones who are in Judea? Could the ones left behind be those who do not go to Judea first for whatever reasons? There are a lot of questions that don't have answers yet. After all God told Daniel...

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Apprently not all is opened yet.

[warfrog]

I am not sure how this plays out. Could the church be in Judea for 30 days or 75 days prior to the dead line? Could they be there helping to set up the work of the two witnesses? Could the ones who go in Rev 12:14 be the ones who are in Judea? Could the ones left behind be those who do not go to Judea first for whatever reasons? There are a lot of questions that don't have answers yet. After all God told Daniel...

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Apprently not all is opened yet.

The ones who turn to God after the earthquake in Jerusalem may be the ones who flee as the AoD occurs within that timeline.
I believe they are simply people who live there at that current time.
I beleive the 2 witnesses work will have just transpired prior to the need for those to flee Judea, upon thier resurrection, those who will flee then turn to God as they are given understanding of the events that are transpiring.
(2 witnesses scriptures, in Revelation and the events that transpire on thier resurrection after they were killed)

When they flee an army goes after them but are stopped by an earthquake preventing them from getting the ones who flee into the wilderness, at that point the ones who flee will be nourished in the wild physically and spiritually for thier times.
The rest of her offspring outside of Judea will have war waged againts them and many saints will fall.

I do not believe the 2 witnesses are resurrected and brought up to heaven at Christ's return, but a few years before it, at the time in which the fulless of the man of sins acts take place, so in other words a mid-way point. I also do not believe anyone else is resurrected and taken with the 2 witnesess, just them, thier work is done as it is spoken and great understanding is granted to men at that time.

[John146]

Personally I find it totally unreasonable to conclude, that in 70 AD, shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I find it unreasonable to conclude that in that verse Jesus was talking about global persecution rather than God's wrath coming down upon unbelieving Jews. Jesus didn't say everyone in the world should flee, He said those in Judea should flee. He didn't say that armies would be attacking people everywhere, He said armies would be surrounding Jerusalem. I don't believe you are seeing the context of what He was talking about there.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe He also talked about the future beyond 70 AD and I don't believe His coming and the end of the age occurred in 70 AD. But I find it hard to believe that anyone would conclude that He didn't say anything at all about what would occur in 70 AD when He was specifically asked when the temple building would be destroyed. They were destroyed in 70 AD, so how could His answer to that question not have anything to do with what happened in 70 AD?

This earth age is not finished yet. This teaching makes it look like no one has much to worry about after 70 AD, since now the worst of the worst would be in the past.

That's not at all what I'm saying. The 70 AD event only had to do with Jerusalem and Judea in particular, so that event has nothing to do with global events that will occur in the future.

John 8:32 made an excellent point in post #57, when he stated..."This became possible in the early 1950's when the U.S. and the Soviet Union had stock piled enough weaponry to destroy all life off of the earth many times over". That is a spot on observation, not that I haven't made the same observations myself pretty much, which is why I fully agree with him.

I fully disagree with him. I believe both of you are taking His words out of context. He was clearly talking about tribulation that would occur specifically in Judea and Jerusalem and you are somehow turning that into global tribulation.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This clearly proves your conclusions incorrect, unless you want to say that verse 2 occured in the first century, in 70 AD or so.

You haven't proven anything to be incorrect. I don't believe what is described in verse 1 had to be fulfilled at the same time as what is described in verse 2. I see verse 1 as referring to the time when Christ would deliver people from the wages of sin and bring salvation to the world, which happened long ago and then I would see verse 2 as referring to the future resurrection of the dead that Jesus also mentioned in John 5:28-29.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

If this is still future, but the following is past...shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...then someone isn't allowing the two testaments to interpret one another.

Look at this side by side.

then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What does it say at the end of that verse? no, nor ever shall be.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:


If the former is past, but the latter is still future, then how could Jesus be so incorrect in Matt 24, when He should have known the Scriptures in Daniel 12? Why would He contradict the Scriptures in Daniel 12, by saying that there is an even greater time of trouble than that, meaning what happened in 70 AD? I'm not saying what happened in 70 AD was not devastating. But why would it be even more devastating than the Holocaust for example? No one would conclude Jesus was referring to the Holocaust in Matt 24, even tho millions of innocent Jews were persecuted and lost their lives as well.

The problem here is that you don't understand what kind of trouble Jesus was speaking about in Matt 24:21. You think Matt 24:21 has something to do with persecution, but it actually has to do with God's wrath. Where is your evidence to show that what He said has anything to do with persecution? How could believers be persecuted if they heeded Christ's warning by fleeing into the mountains? The ones who would be affected by the tribulation would be unbelievers so it's not about persecution, it's about God's wrath against unbelievers. And no event involving God's wrath can be any worse than the flood. So, Jesus was not speaking in the context of an event that would literally be the worst to ever occur in the world. He was using hyperbole. Do you know that it was not uncommon for people to use hyperbole back then and that hyperbolic language is used elsewhere in scripture as well (I gave an example earlier)?

BTW, the main purpose for this thread was the timeline in the Luke 17 account, and what that tells us about the order of events in the other parallel accounts. It seems like no one is wanting to deal with that, besides BB2.

I agree with what BB2 has said about that and don't really have anything to add to what he has already said. Are you saying you don't want to talk about anything else besides Luke 17 specifically in this thread?

[divaD]

I agree with what BB2 has said about that and don't really have anything to add to what he has already said. Are you saying you don't want to talk about anything else besides Luke 17 specifically in this thread?

I'm getting ready to eat lunch, so I'll just briefly address this part for now.

IMO, I think Luke 17 addresses pretty much everything you've said in this post. So that would be the perspective I'm arguing from. What do you make of the following?


Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

I'm assuming this is parallel to the following, unless it can be shown my conclusions are incorrect.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Do you or do you not conclude these are meaning the same event as in Luke 17:31? If not, why not? But if so, how can you miss the fact that Luke 17 places this at the time of the comparison to the days of Noah, which then, Matt 24 places the comparison to the days of Noah, with that of around the return of Christ.? The way it looks to me then, the reason the days are cut short for the elects sake, is because Christ returns before man wipes mankind entirely out of existence, which is entirely possible, being that we have nuclear capabilities these days.

If it weren't for Luke 17:31, maybe I would be looking at this differently.

And no, we don't have to just discuss Luke 17, but I think it's relevant to anyone's conclusion tho.

[John146]

I'm getting ready to eat lunch, so I'll just briefly address this part for now.

IMO, I think Luke 17 addresses pretty much everything you've said in this post. So that would be the perspective I'm arguing from. What do you make of the following?


Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

I'm assuming this is parallel to the following, unless it can be shown my conclusions are incorrect.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Do you or do you not conclude these are meaning the same event as in Luke 17:31?

I don't believe they are parallel. What I believe many miss is that Jesus spoke both about events that would occur in and around Jerusalem which ended up occurring around 70 AD and also events that would occur globally in the time preceding His future second coming up until the day of His second coming. The 70 AD event has some things in common with the future global event so it can be easy to confuse the two if we aren't careful to look at the context of any given passage. The tribulation of 70 AD was something Jesus warned Jews specifically about because He specifically mentioned that it would be necessary to flee Judea and that armies would surround Jerusalem, which is exactly what happened in 70 AD.

If not, why not? But if so, how can you miss the fact that Luke 17 places this at the time of the comparison to the days of Noah, which then, Matt 24 places the comparison to the days of Noah, with that of around the return of Christ.? The way it looks to me then, the reason the days are cut short for the elects sake, is because Christ returns before man wipes mankind entirely out of existence, which is entirely possible, being that we have nuclear capabilities these days.

The problem with this is that you are not taking into account that Jesus only mentioned tribulation occurring in Jerusalem and the surrounding area in Matt 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24. So, there's no basis for seeing those particular passages as speaking of global tribulation. He spoke elsewhere in the Olivet Discourse besides those verses (such as Matt 24:37-39) of global wrath that would come down upon the wicked at His return. That is a different event than the one relating to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings.

If it weren't for Luke 17:31, maybe I would be looking at this differently.

I understand. But sometimes similar verses are not necessarily directly related to each other (not speaking of the exact same events) and I think this is one of those times.

[billy-brown 2]

All except for the fact that Christ said...

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Either that happened or it has not happened yet. It is all according to how much you believe Christ knew what He was talking about. I believe He did.

John,

Jesus was talking about the temple buildings being destroyed in the applicable verses below:

Matt. 24
1Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

Yep.

And after all, even "secular" history confirms that the "'temple buildings" have been destroyed already, so . . .

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

Problem with your time frame is...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

More died in WWII than 70AD under Titus. So that was not the worst tribulation that has ever been.

But John,

Jesus was mentioning that the AOD was the one spoken of through Daniel the prophet; notice the text in bold below:

Matt. 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Now, what did Daniel write about this? What time frame did Daniel's writings refer to? Jesus had to have read about it, yes?

[John 8:32]

Now, what did Daniel write about this? What time frame did Daniel's writings refer to? Jesus had to have read about it, yes?

Not to difficult...

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Sorry, but 70 AD just does not fit this description. WWII was worse than 70 AD. There is coming a time worse than that. Worse than anything that has every happened including 70 AD and WWII put together.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Has this happened yet according to...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Did Christ return in 70 AD? The whole world missed it if He did.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Happens at the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, see 1Cor 15:23

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Were they running to and fro on their donkey carts? Jet travel, ocean travel, cars etc. The explosion of knowledge only really began in the 20th century. It increased prior to that but it did not get to the point of today where knowledge doubles every five years overall, but sectors like nanotechnology double every two years. It has been reported that IT knowledge doubles every eighteen months. This was not going on in 70AD.

[billy-brown 2]

Not to difficult...

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Sorry, but 70 AD just does not fit this description. WWII was worse than 70 AD. There is coming a time worse than that. Worse than anything that has every happened including 70 AD and WWII put together.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Has this happened yet according to...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Did Christ return in 70 AD? The whole world missed it if He did.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Happens at the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, see 1Cor 15:23

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Were they running to and fro on their donkey carts? Jet travel, ocean travel, cars etc. The explosion of knowledge only really began in the 20th century. It increased prior to that but it did not get to the point of today where knowledge doubles every five years overall, but sectors like nanotechnology double every two years. It has been reported that IT knowledge doubles every eighteen months. This was not going on in 70AD.

John,

Daniel did not write about 70AD.

(Yes, you read that correctly.)

In fact, it was Gabriel who was talking; and Gabriel was talking about seventy weeks and so on. Indeed, this is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:15-21; look closely at the prophesy below:

Dan. 9
24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

[John 8:32]

John,

Daniel did not write about 70AD.

(Yes, you read that correctly.)

In fact, it was Gabriel who was talking; and Gabriel was talking about seventy weeks and so on. Indeed, this is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:15-21; look closely at the prophesy below:

You are absolutely correct that Daniel did not write about 70AD, he wrote about the same end of the age that Jesus spoke of (well yeaah, since Christ inspired the words he wrote) in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that by description cannot have happened yet.