The 3rd Temple

[David Taylor]

Did the second Temple become unholy, because of the everlasting Temple?

I think the Hebrew writer answered this pretty clearly, when he compared the everlasting Temple (Jesus) to the existing second (Herod) Temple, when he said, "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building" Hebrews 9:11

If so, when did it become unholy? After Pentecost or AD70, or when?

Continuing on from the Hebrew writer, I believe Mark gives us this transition; again not based on arbitraty dates like Pentecost or AD70; but on the most important prime date....the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."
Mark 15:37 "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."

If after Pentecost, then why did the Jewish Christians still go there until AD70?

Tradition and culture took some Jewish Christians there until AD70; but again, according to Jesus; it wasn't necessary at all...the temple made with hands, and even Jerusalem itself, were rendered moot and superceeded by Himself as the pure, cleansed, living water symbolized by the Holy Spirit.

John 4:20 "ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "

Wasn’t the OT temple and temple life said to be a shadow of the actual?
If so, can the shadow ever become unholy?

All shadows are human imperfect models the perfect that is yet to come.

Any temple made with hands, is imperfect and inferior to the true everlasting Temple made without hands; which is Jesus; and He has already come. Their are no more shadows.....for as Luke told us "To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death" Luke 1:76

[Caleb]

There is a difference in the true temple becoming a better and greater, and the old hand built shadow temple becoming unholy.

So can I ask again, did the old temple become ‘unholy’ and if so when?

Being under grace (the better and more perfect) does not make the law unholy.

If the law remains for those who are who are under the law, then how can they fulfil the requirements of the law without the temple and ceremonies?

You have to first die (crucified with Christ) to be divorced from the law, and to then be under grace. So the law remains for those not in Christ.

[David Taylor]

There is a difference in the true temple becoming a better and greater, and the old hand built shadow temple becoming unholy.

So can I ask again, did the old temple become ‘unholy’ and if so when?

Being under grace (the better and more perfect) does not make the law unholy.

If the law remains for those who are who are under the law, then how can they fulfil the requirements of the law without the temple and ceremonies?

You have to first die (crucified with Christ) to be divorced from the law, and to then be under grace. So the law remains for those not in Christ.

Nothing remains for those now without Christ, except remaining lost, or turning to Him. There is no other holy temple. He is the only Holy Temple.

The law's purpose was to point the sinner to the Lord, not to save the sinner as another way of avoiding the Lord.

The law was fulfilled by Christ, therefore noone that lives now, nor who will ever live will ever have to attempt to fulfill the law.

All people now and forevermore have to do is to believe and follow Jesus Christ, the final and everlasting fulled temple.

Christ is where there is fellowship with God. He is where there is holy.

Christ is where there is the only appropriatly acceptable offering and sacrifice. Outside of Christ's temple, there is nothing holy, lawful, or righteous; only filthy rags.

[Caleb]

Nothing remains for those now without Christ, except remaining lost, or turning to Him. There is no other holy temple. He is the only Holy Temple.

The law's purpose was to point the sinner to the Lord, not to save the sinner as another way of avoiding the Lord.

The law was fulfilled by Christ, therefore noone that lives now, nor who will ever live will ever have to attempt to fulfill the law.

All people now and forevermore have to do is to believe and follow Jesus Christ, the final and everlasting fulled temple.

Christ is where there is fellowship with God. He is where there is holy.

Christ is where there is the only appropriatly acceptable offering and sacrifice. Outside of Christ's temple, there is nothing holy, lawful, or righteous; only filthy rags.

Hi again David!

"The law's purpose was to point the sinner to the Lord"

The law's purpose still is to point the sinner to the Lord.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It is only death that frees us from the law, but it remains for those who still live.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Those who are not in the Body of Christ, are not dead to the law.

Ethnic Israel are still under the old covenant law, and only death can free them from that covenant. Unless or until they die in Christ can they then enter the new covenant.

[David Taylor]

Hi again David!

"The law's purpose was to point the sinner to the Lord"

The law's purpose still is to point the sinner to the Lord.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It is only death that frees us from the law, but it remains for those who still live.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Those who are not in the Body of Christ, are not dead to the law.

Those who are not in the Body of Christ, are just plain dead. The remain dead until the enter into the Body of Christ.

Noone without Christ has life.

Speaking to the Jews who didn't believe Him and rejected Him, Jesus said: "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. " John 5:37

Ethnic Israel are still under the old covenant law, and only death can free them from that covenant. Unless or until they die in Christ can they then enter the new covenant.

Doesn't matter. Race is irrelevant.

Every human being is in bondage, without freedom, and without liberty, and without hope; until they die in Christ. It is not different for an Israeli, than it is for an Egyptian, or an Eskimo.

Any human without Christ is dead in sin without hope. (and they are 'our' mission field)

Any human with Christ, has entered into His Body, partaken of the New Covenant, and has the promise of Eternal life.

[John 8:32]

Ethnic Israel are still under the old covenant law, and only death can free them from that covenant. Unless or until they die in Christ can they then enter the new covenant.

Allow me to point out a fallacy in your thinking...

The 1st covenant was between Christ and Israel. Christ died, therefore the covenant (agreement) was broken. Remember Christ said to Israel...

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
etc.

Now, how can Christ be free to marry the church when He was married to them? Christ will not break His own law and commit adultery. He died, which dissolved the marriage allowing Him to be free to marry the church at His coming. Israel is not under the O.C. Death has freed them, but they do not know it and will not know it until Christ returns.

[David Taylor]

Allow me to point out a fallacy in your thinking...

The 1st covenant was between Christ and Israel. Christ died, therefore the covenant (agreement) was broken. Remember Christ said to Israel...

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
etc.

Now, how can Christ be free to marry the church when He was married to them? Christ will not break His own law and commit adultery. He died, which dissolved the marriage allowing Him to be free to marry the church at His coming. Israel is not under the O.C. Death has freed them, but they do not know it and will not know it until Christ returns.

During the later OT times, for the vast most-part, believers and followers of God only existed within Israel. Prior to Israel's existence in the early OT times, most believers and followers of God were found in the lineages of Abraham, Lot, Noah, by families, not any organized nation who followed the Lord. Most all other families, peoples and nations were whoring after other gods and idols; in complete rejection of God.

However, when Christ came, He shine His light into the darkness for all the Gentiles and all people of the world, making Himself available to be 'married to' by all men....not limited to a few individuals, not limited to a few families, not limited to a single nation, but everyone in a new and encompassing way by the power of the cross.

Marriage to Christ is never racial, nor governmental, nor political....it is always individual, one, then one more, then one more; as each person of faith in any age turns to follow and trust the Lord.

The marriage of people to God is by faith, not race....never was, never will be.

[John 8:32]

The marriage of people to God is by faith, not race....never was, never will be.

All except for the fact that Christ said He was married to Israel.

[quiet dove]

Kinda seems to me that "husband" references God(the Father). I do believe there are instances, in the OT, where the Angel of the Lord is in reference to Christ and most certainly believe He was present and accounted for. But I also believe the husband of Israel, the LORD...and the Bride of Christ-the Church

That DOES NOT MEAN that there is any other means provided by God for eternal life other than the promised Messiah, who of course I know to be Jesus Christ...Jesus was/is the promised Holy One..but He is also the promised Heir to the Davidic dynasty, and the One whom is promised to Redeem and restore the nation

As far as "husband" goes:
Joe 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth For the husband of her youth.

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. 6 For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused," Says your God.

Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

Eze 16:32 You are an adulterous wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband.

Hos 2:7 She will chase her lovers, But not overtake them; Yes, she will seek them, but not find them. Then she will say, 'I will go and return to my first husband, For then it was better for me than now.'

Hos 2:16 "And it shall be, in that day," Says the LORD, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' And no longer call Me 'My Master,'


Regarding faith, as David stated:
I believe those verse to be talking of God and the nation of Israel...however...I agree with David regarding faith..being an ethnic Jew was not sufficient because it was not the Law that kept the Israelite in faith.... it was faith that kept the Israelite in the Law. Without faith, which leads to obedience..the Law and it's ordinances were not pleasing to God

Jeremiah 7:21; Jeremiah 14:10; Proverbs 21:3; Amos 5:21

Mic 6:6 With what shall I come before the LORD, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?

Hosea sums it up
Hos 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

With insistence that because believers are the temple of God there fore there can be no other temple, we run into problems when we get to Revelation where we are told there is no temple, God and the Lamb are it's temple. If we apply the same process that because the Church is now the real temple therefore no other temple can exist, we must also apply that rule to the Church, that the Bride of Christ is no longer a legitimate temple? We know that the Bride/the Church will be in heaven. The context of the believer being the temple needs to be considered not just the word temple. There is also the temple in heaven "not made with hands" that the worshiping believers enters.

It also is a problem with the AoD...either a person is in Christ Jesus and thus indwelt by the Spirit serving God and therefore a temple to the Lord, or, they are not. Both the AoD and the Holy Spirit cannot both be in a man, it is an either or when it comes to the hearts of men. Besides, there is no "Holy Place" within the heart of even the believers ever stated in scripture...Holy Spirit within them yes..access to the Holy Place as a believer enters into the presence of God, spiritually ..yes.

If the AoD is in a mans heart, that mans heart is not a temple of God. The AoD can only enter into a building, not a believer, is my point.

I am not saying a rebuilt temple is ordained of God, or built in obedience, just saying that I believe God prophesied there would be one.

[Caleb]

Allow me to point out a fallacy in your thinking...

The 1st covenant was between Christ and Israel. Christ died, therefore the covenant (agreement) was broken. Remember Christ said to Israel...

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
etc.

Now, how can Christ be free to marry the church when He was married to them? Christ will not break His own law and commit adultery. He died, which dissolved the marriage allowing Him to be free to marry the church at His coming. Israel is not under the O.C. Death has freed them, but they do not know it and will not know it until Christ returns.

Does that mean you believe in replacement theology?

[ross3421]

[/COLOR]

I think the Hebrew writer answered this pretty clearly, when he compared the everlasting Temple (Jesus) to the existing second (Herod) Temple, when he said, "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building" Hebrews 9:11

Can there not be a physical tabernacle which was made "without hands" which means by man himself. Did not Jesus (whose is without hands) go an build and prepare a place for us, a physical place?

Mark [/COLOR]14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."
Mark 15:37 "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."

The veil of the temple in heaven was rent in two not Jesus. There is a physical temple made by God (without hands) apart from Jesus.

Any temple made with hands, is imperfect and inferior to the true everlasting Temple made without hands; which is Jesus; and He has already come. Their are no more shadows.....for as Luke told us "

[/COLOR]To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death" Luke 1:76

[/QUOTE]

Jesus is NOT the temple made without hands.

[John 8:32]

Does that mean you believe in replacement theology?

What conclusion do you draw from this?

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[John146]

Jesus is NOT the temple made without hands.

He is the chief cornerstone of the temple made without hands, of which we (believers) are all part.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[John 8:32]

He is the chief cornerstone of the temple made without hands, of which we (believers) are all part.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Not too often we agree, but you are dead on with this one.

[warfrog]

The third temple is mans heart, where the Holy Spirit dwells through the Cornerstones sacrifice.

It isnt built with materials.

God dwells in your heart through Christ's sacrifice by the Holy Spirit, that is the third temple.