Christ's return

[the rookie]

So after we loose these corrupt physical bodies, we are to stay on this earth? But the bible says:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

From what I understand about the shift in the a-millennial viewpoint over the past decade, more and more folks have professed a conviction that post-Second Coming life happens on a renewed / restored earth. So this view isn't simply a pre-millennial oddity.

There are too many "forever" passages related to the earth - as well as Peter's own phrase, "the restoration of all things". You can't pit 2 Pet. 3:10 against them all. So clearly Peter himself had something else in mind when he stated that, related to the restoration of the earth.

[John 8:32]

I thought you had said this:
So after we loose these corrupt physical bodies, we are to stay on this earth? But the bible says:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And the entire history of the earth is contained right there? Whatever happened to...

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

[John 8:32]

I thought you had said this:
So after we loose these corrupt physical bodies, we are to stay on this earth? But the bible says:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Loose what corrupt bodies? These corrupt bodies are changed to incorruptible, mortal bodies are changed to immortal...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We put on immortality, we do not already possess it...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God does not husk as as an ear of corn, He changes us from mortal to immortal, temporary to permanent.

[Raybob]

Loose what corrupt bodies? These corrupt bodies are changed to incorruptible, mortal bodies are changed to immortal...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We put on immortality, we do not already possess it...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God does not husk as as an ear of corn, He changes us from mortal to immortal, temporary to permanent.

What about all those past martyrs like ol Steven of Acts 7? He has no more mortal body to exist on this earth, when time no longer exists.

To Rookie: If Amill means this earth still exists after the return of Christ, then I'm no longer amill, I'm 'realized' mill, just like since I'm a Christian but Jewish decent, I'm a 'completed' Jew.

[the rookie]

What about all those past martyrs like ol Steven of Acts 7? He has no more mortal body to exist on this earth, when time no longer exists.

You do believe that the resurrected, immortal body will be physical and spiritual in nature, right? Otherwise, it's not "resurrected".

And where does scripture say that "time ceases to exist"? As long as we have physical bodies, we have physics; as long as we have music, we have time

To Rookie: If Amill means this earth still exists after the return of Christ, then I'm no longer amill, I'm 'realized' mill, just like since I'm a Christian but Jewish decent, I'm a 'completed' Jew.

The New Jerusalem comes down to the earth at the end of the story. There are a large number of "restoration of the earth" passages knit to the "forever" passages I spoke of earlier. This planet is going to be around for a long, long, time.

[John 8:32]

What about all those past martyrs like ol Steven of Acts 7? He has no more mortal body to exist on this earth, when time no longer exists.

To Rookie: If Amill means this earth still exists after the return of Christ, then I'm no longer amill, I'm 'realized' mill, just like since I'm a Christian but Jewish decent, I'm a 'completed' Jew.

Steven and all the others are dead. They are awaiting a resurrection. Many scriptures show this, here are a few...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Speaking of those in the "Hall of Fame", they have not received the promises.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Notice the future tense there: "shall all be made alive." When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[Raybob]

[QUOTE=the rookie;2836271]You do believe that the resurrected, immortal body will be physical and spiritual in nature, right? Otherwise, it's not "resurrected".[QUOTE]Yes, I do, but not the same 'physical' body that I'm used to. It will be more like after Jesus rose from the dead, how He could seem to go through walls, appear, disappear, etc.[QUOTE]

And where does scripture say that "time ceases to exist"? As long as we have physical bodies, we have physics; as long as we have music, we have time

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I believe that is true. When the sun and moon no longer exist, there is no way to measure time any more, for the rest of eternity.

-also-

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I believe that one too.

The New Jerusalem comes down to the earth at the end of the story. There are a large number of "restoration of the earth" passages knit to the "forever" passages I spoke of earlier. This planet is going to be around for a long, long, time.

Yes and there are other passages I believe correspond to this matter as well, such as:


Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

[the rookie]

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I believe that is true. When the sun and moon no longer exist, there is no way to measure time any more, for the rest of eternity.

Where does the scripture say, "the sun and the moon will no longer exist"?

-also-

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I believe that one too.

You're only quoting half the sentence, and then interpreting it to mean something very different than what is actually being said. The "time" being spoken of here is a direct reference to the "times" mentioned in Daniel 12 - when the angel raised his hands and swore that the trouble and shaking to come (happening in Rev. 6 and 9) would only last a specified, per-determined period of time (1260 days). The sounding of the final trumpet (10:7) brings that promised time to the end sworn by the angel of Daniel 12. That's why the two passages are best understood together, and it's best not to separate 10:6 from 10:7, either

The angel is not swearing that "all time will now come to an end".

Yes and there are other passages I believe correspond to this matter as well, such as:


Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Yes, however, since there are many "renovation of the earth" passages that can't be set aside, one has to harmonize the ideas and determine what, exactly, is going to "pass away". Paul likens the transformation / renovation of the earth to the transformation / renovation of our bodies in Romans 8. That gives us a more complete picture of what the apostles had in mind. Same body (though it "passes away"), transformed and glorified. That same process happens to the heavens (atmosphere) and the earth as well.

[John 8:32]

Aw, it is not worth it.

[John146]

Where does the scripture say, "the sun and the moon will no longer exist"?

Well, that could be implied from these verses:

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I understand that this doesn't explicitly say that the sun and moon will no longer exist, but it does explicitly say there will be no need for them. So, that makes me wonder why they would still exist if there's no need for them.

With that said I'm not one who believes the heavens and earth are going to be annihilated and then replaced by entirely different and new heavens and an entirely new earth. I believe the heavens and earth are going to be changed (drastically) similar to how our bodies will be changed.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

I suppose that change could involve the elimination of the sun and moon.

Yes, however, since there are many "renovation of the earth" passages that can't be set aside, one has to harmonize the ideas and determine what, exactly, is going to "pass away". Paul likens the transformation / renovation of the earth to the transformation / renovation of our bodies in Romans 8. That gives us a more complete picture of what the apostles had in mind. Same body (though it "passes away"), transformed and glorified. That same process happens to the heavens (atmosphere) and the earth as well.

I agree. What will "pass away" or cease to be is not the entire heavens and earth themselves but things like death, sorrow, crying and pain.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[Raybob]

Well, that could be implied from these verses:

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I understand that this doesn't explicitly say that the sun and moon will no longer exist, but it does explicitly say there will be no need for them. So, that makes me wonder why they would still exist if there's no need for them.

With that said I'm not one who believes the heavens and earth are going to be annihilated and then replaced by entirely different and new heavens and an entirely new earth. I believe the heavens and earth are going to be changed (drastically) similar to how our bodies will be changed.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

I suppose that change could involve the elimination of the sun and moon.

My favorite is:


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

After the elements melt, they will recrystallize into a world that we can't even begin to imagine, with no need for the sun or moon, IMO.

[John146]

My favorite is:


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

After the elements melt, they will recrystallize into a world that we can't even begin to imagine, with no need for the sun or moon, IMO.

Things are going to be a lot different (and better) at that point. I think we can all agree on that.

[the rookie]

Things are going to be a lot different (and better) at that point. I think we can all agree on that.

Absolutely!

[DurbanDude]

My favorite is:


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

After the elements melt, they will recrystallize into a world that we can't even begin to imagine, with no need for the sun or moon, IMO.

Whenever you amills quote 2 Peter 3, I have to point out what it actually means. The word "earth" in hebrew means "land" and does not mean the planet earth. The word "elements" means natural materials, like rock and sand, the word "heavens" means the sky or atmosphere. The word "the" is added when the original sentences did not have the word "the"

So the bible seems to be saying that the earth will burn, but is actually saying land will burn, rocks will melt, the sky will "pass by". The second coming will be a dramatic day when land burns and rocks melt and possible something like volcanic clouds or volcanic clouds will transform the atmosphere, and be visibly dramatic. there is nothing conclusive in 2 Peter 3 that could contradict all those verses in the bible that rather indicate that land continues to survive without burning up, and the foundations of the land (the planet?) will continue forever.

[Raybob]

Whenever you amills quote 2 Peter 3, I have to point out what it actually means. The word "earth" in hebrew means "land" and does not mean the planet earth. The word "elements" means natural materials, like rock and sand, the word "heavens" means the sky or atmosphere. The word "the" is added when the original sentences did not have the word "the"

So the bible seems to be saying that the earth will burn, but is actually saying land will burn, rocks will melt, the sky will "pass by". The second coming will be a dramatic day when land burns and rocks melt and possible something like volcanic clouds or volcanic clouds will transform the atmosphere, and be visibly dramatic. there is nothing conclusive in 2 Peter 3 that could contradict all those verses in the bible that rather indicate that land continues to survive without burning up, and the foundations of the land (the planet?) will continue forever.

Heavens = ouranos (Greek).

There is no other Greek word that describes the place where the sun and moon are, except ouranos. Ouranos, according to scripture, will be on fire and melting. You are trying to say that just air in the sky will just "pass away". I would rather believe what scripture plainly states.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)