Christ's return

[DurbanDude]

Heavens = ouranos (Greek).

There is no other Greek word that describes the place where the sun and moon are, except ouranos. Ouranos, according to scripture, will be on fire and melting. You are trying to say that just air in the sky will just "pass away". I would rather believe what scripture plainly states.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

Yes, when they looked at the sky, wthey thought that all the visible things they saw were in there own atmosphere. They did not have a word to seperate the atmosphere from the outer universe. This other usage of the words "earth" and "heavens" can be seen in Genesis 1 where the earth and heavens clearly exist by day 1, and yet are created on days two and three.

The context itself explains it, when Genesis 1 clearly defines the "land" that is coming up out of the water as earth (which 2 Peter also describes) and the expanse between the clouds and the oceans as the "sky". You are saying the word "heavens" means the universe, I am saying its the sky as described in Genesis 1.

1:6 God said, "Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
1:7 God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
1:8 God called the expanse sky. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.
1:9 God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear;" and it was so.
1:10 God called the dry land Earth

[Raybob]

..The context itself explains it, when Genesis 1 clearly defines the "land" that is coming up out of the water as earth (which 2 Peter also describes) and the expanse between the clouds and the oceans as the "sky". You are saying the word "heavens" means the universe, I am saying its the sky as described in Genesis 1...

That's not true at all. I would NEVER use the word "universe". It isn't a biblical word in the first place. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away. We know from Genesis that "heaven" is the place God created where He set the moon and sun into for times and seasons.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


Once the Lord returns, there will no longer be a need to measure time anymore, nor will there be any need for the sun, ever again.

"When we've been there 10,000 years, we've only just begun."

You just can't believe what the bible says and need to think that air will melt, not the elements in the sun and moon. We are clearly at an impasse here. I believe the word, you believe your word.

[DurbanDude]

That's not true at all. I would NEVER use the word "universe". It isn't a biblical word in the first place. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away. .

When Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away, did He mean the planet earth and the universe would pass away? Or did He mean that the land and atmosphere would pass away? The English certainly sounds like its the entire planet, but the Greek did not have a word for the planet earth because no-one knew that the earth existed as a planet then.

We know from Genesis that "heaven" is the place God created where He set the moon and sun into for times and seasons.

Heavens already existed in verse 1, the expanse of the sky was created in day 2, if you look at the Hebrew, the moon and the sun were "produced".

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

You just can't believe what the bible says and need to think that air will melt, not the elements in the sun and moon. We are clearly at an impasse here. I believe the word, you believe your word

Ooh nasty!

[Raybob]

When Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away, did He mean the planet earth and the universe would pass away? Or did He mean that the land and atmosphere would pass away? The English certainly sounds like its the entire planet, but the Greek did not have a word for the planet earth because no-one knew that the earth existed as a planet then. ...

Jesus said "Heaven" and earth will pass away. We know from Genesis 1 that heaven contains the firmament where the sun and moon are.

[DurbanDude]

Jesus said "Heaven" and earth will pass away. We know from Genesis 1 that heaven contains the firmament where the sun and moon are.

What the verse is saying is that the sun and moon are produced in the expanse between the waters above and the waters below. Which is actually impossible that the sun and moon are below the hovering waters (cloud cover?). I believe it means they were visually produced because previously the waters above (mists? water vapour?) and the waters below were together before the expanse was created which does seem to indicate no visible sky.

1:6 God said, "Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
1:7 God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
1:8 God called the expanse sky.

1:14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
1:15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give light on the earth;" and it was so.
1:16 God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars.

How would you explain that the stars, the sun and the moon are in the expanse between the waters?

[Raybob]

What the verse is saying is that the sun and moon are produced in the expanse between the waters above and the waters below. Which is actually impossible that the sun and moon are below the hovering waters (cloud cover?). ..

You have no idea what's possible. How big is your God? Before the flood, it was a different world, so to speak. Many scholars believe the earth was surrounded by an ice canopy creating hyperbaric pressures on earth. That ice canopy melted when the flood came. The sun and moon were set in the firmament OF heaven.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
(Gen 1:14)

Firmament:
H7549
רקיע
râqı̂ya‛
raw-kee'-ah
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

Visible arch includes the sun, moon and stars. Are they not visible???

[DurbanDude]

You have no idea what's possible. How big is your God? Before the flood, it was a different world, so to speak. Many scholars believe the earth was surrounded by an ice canopy creating hyperbaric pressures on earth. That ice canopy melted when the flood came. The sun and moon were set in the firmament OF heaven.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
(Gen 1:14)

Firmament:
H7549
רקיע
râqı̂ya‛
raw-kee'-ah
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

Visible arch includes the sun, moon and stars. Are they not visible???

Yes they are visible, but that's my point, the word for "heavens" is referring to the visible sky of this planet according to Genesis 1. Its specifically the expanse BETWEEN the waters. Therefore when Jesus comes and the heavens (sky) passes by, this could merely be referring to some activity in our atmosphere and is not necessarily referring to the sun and the moon as well which are visible in our sky, and yet do not exist in the expanse between the waters.

[Stormcrow]

That's not true at all. I would NEVER use the word "universe". It isn't a biblical word in the first place. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away. We know from Genesis that "heaven" is the place God created where He set the moon and sun into for times and seasons.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


Once the Lord returns, there will no longer be a need to measure time anymore, nor will there be any need for the sun, ever again.

"When we've been there 10,000 years, we've only just begun."

You just can't believe what the bible says and need to think that air will melt, not the elements in the sun and moon. We are clearly at an impasse here. I believe the word, you believe your word.

You all do realize that "heaven and earth" is also a metaphor for both the Temple and the Holy Land, right? I would cite some references, but you'll all be more convinced if you do the legwork yourselves.

[Raybob]

Yes they are visible, but that's my point, the word for "heavens" is referring to the visible sky of this planet according to Genesis 1. Its specifically the expanse BETWEEN the waters. Therefore when Jesus comes and the heavens (sky) passes by, this could merely be referring to some activity in our atmosphere and is not necessarily referring to the sun and the moon as well which are visible in our sky, and yet do not exist in the expanse between the waters.

I guess this means you don't believe the following verse:


Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

[DurbanDude]

I guess this means you don't believe the following verse:


Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I believe all the verses in the bible, maybe you do not understand the premill position, there are no general disagreements between amills and premills on Rev 22 because both groups agree that Rev 22 a post-millenial period. I also believe that after the millenium period there will be no need for the sun, just like you do. The difference is that I believe Rev 22 occurs 1000 years after the second coming, whereas you believe it occurs at the second coming.

[Raybob]

I believe all the verses in the bible, maybe you do not understand the premill position, there are no general disagreements between amills and premills on Rev 22 because both groups agree that Rev 22 a post-millenial period. I also believe that after the millenium period there will be no need for the sun, just like you do. The difference is that I believe Rev 22 occurs 1000 years after the second coming, whereas you believe it occurs at the second coming.

Actually, I understand the pre-mill position very well. I once was pre-mill. This is one of the points that led me to give up that position. I was instructed that the last "day" of this heaven and earth was a 1000 year long "day", because 2 Tim. 3 mentions that to God, 1000 years is like a day. We are not God. To us, a day is always a day.

So you believe that heaven and earth WILL pass away, but just not when Jesus returns, but 1000 years after that last "day". You believe that the last day is actually 1000 year long "day", but at the same time, you believe the last "hour" Jesus mentioned in John 5:28 is also a 1000 year long "hour". Think about it. Does this really make sense?

[the rookie]

It does make sense, as it relates to hundreds of other passages on the subject.

Even then, I don't believe that the heavens and the earth pass away as you understand it. The heavens and earth pass away in the same manner that my mortal frame "passes away" - it is renewed, or made new. "Behold, I make all things new!" Does that mean "all new things" or "all things made new"? In the case of the mortal body, anyone alive at the Second Coming of Christ is caught up in the air to be with Him, and in the twinkling of an eye, they are "made new" - from corruptible to incorruptible. Their former body "passes away" (it is no longer what it once was) and is immediately glorified (transfigured into what it always will be).

The earth and the heavens undergo the same transformation - a "glorification" of the heavens and the earth in which the old order passes away and all things are made new. Peter is describing for us how comprehensive that process is (down to the elements themselves) as a means of communicating something else entirely: how incompatible a Holy God is with any manner of sin or defilement.

That's why Peter's "therefore" pertains to our lifestyle - in light of the comprehensive renovation of the earth to remove sin, how then shall we live?

That's why we need to beware of isolating the passage, which can cause us to miss the immediate point (Peter's call to holiness in the light of present false grace teaching and future cleansing fire) and the larger storyline (the transformation / renovation of the earth and the heavens into something "made new" in holiness).

[quiet dove]

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Imho, Romans supports the earth being renewed as opposed to being non-existent from destruction. More than once we have fire used as the refining and the purifying...but not destroyed as in no longer existing...the old corrupted no longer existing, but the glorified brought forth...as by fire.

Just like the earth was not destroyed, as in no-existent with the flood
Gen 9:11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."

But not only is the earth cleansed from sinful men...it is itself, renewed, no longer groaning under the curse of sin.

Idk, thats how I understand it anyway...along with what rookie said..never really heard it put that way and it makes sense to me

[Raybob]

It does make sense, as it relates to hundreds of other passages on the subject.

Even then, I don't believe that the heavens and the earth pass away as you understand it. The heavens and earth pass away in the same manner that my mortal frame "passes away" - it is renewed, or made new. ...

Then how do you explain, " And there shall be no night there", and "neither light of the sun"[Rev_22:5]??? If there will be no sunlight, that means there would be no sun, as in our current heaven. Certainly, at least the heaven is a "new" one, not the old one. Same for the earth, it will be a "new" one, not the old one but refurbished.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

***********

Look at the Greek for "shall be dissolved" in 2Peter 3:12, speaking about the heavens at the Lord's return.

G3089
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.

[Stormcrow]

Then how do you explain, " And there shall be no night there", and "neither light of the sun"[Rev_22:5]??? If there will be no sunlight, that means there would be no sun, as in our current heaven. Certainly, at least the heaven is a "new" one, not the old one. Same for the earth, it will be a "new" one, not the old one but refurbished.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

***********

Look at the Greek for "shall be dissolved" in 2Peter 3:12, speaking about the heavens at the Lord's return.

G3089
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.

As I mentioned before, "heaven and earth" is a metaphor for both the Temple and the land of Israel (the Holy Land). Referring to the Temple, it was the place where "heaven and earth" met and where the presence - the Spirit - of God dwelt on earth (many references to this very thing in the OT). The "heaven and earth" metaphor for the Temple explains all of what you guys are arguing about if you'll investigate it.

So wherever you see Christ or an apostle talking about "heaven and earth", replace it with the word "Temple."

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth [the Temple] pass [passes] away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "Heaven and earth [the Temple] will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Matthew 24:34-35 (NASB)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth [Temple]; for the first heaven and the first earth [Temple] passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Revelation 21:1 (NASB)

And what is this new "heaven and earth" [Temple: the place where heaven and earth meet] that John saw?

So then you [Gentiles] are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints [Jews], and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22 (NASB)

Yep. We're it.

Oh, and one more thing: the "sea" that is said no longer to exist in Revelation? Yeah, there's an OT meaning behind that, too, involving the Temple:

Now King Solomon sent and brought Hiram from Tyre. He was a widow's son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom and understanding and skill for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work. 1 Kings 7:13-14 (NASB)

Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference. Under its brim gourds went around encircling it ten to a cubit, completely surrounding the sea; the gourds were in two rows, cast with the rest. It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; and the sea was set on top of them, and all their rear parts turned inward. It was a handbreadth thick, and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, as a lily blossom; it could hold two thousand baths. 1 Kings 7:23-26 (NASB)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled disagreements.

P.S. But I can hear you now, "Yeah, but Jesus said His body was the Temple!" Yep: He was that which exemplified the perfect union of heaven and earth, now the head of us, His body, His earthly Temple.

Any eyes opening yet?