Christ's return

[DurbanDude]

Actually, I understand the pre-mill position very well. I once was pre-mill. This is one of the points that led me to give up that position. I was instructed that the last "day" of this heaven and earth was a 1000 year long "day", because 2 Tim. 3 mentions that to God, 1000 years is like a day. We are not God. To us, a day is always a day. So you believe that heaven and earth WILL pass away, but just not when Jesus returns, but 1000 years after that last "day". You believe that the last day is actually 1000 year long "day", but at the same time, you believe the last "hour" Jesus mentioned in John 5:28 is also a 1000 year long "hour". Think about it. Does this really make sense?

Well I have never studied the standard premill position on this, the way I see it, the last day is the second coming which is the last day of this current age. Some amills then normally point to verses that show that there is a judgment on the last day. Which I agree with because there are 3 judgments at the second coming and then another judgment 1000 years later at the great white throne.

At the second coming coming all mankind is judged worthy or unworthy to be resurrected. Those who are "left behind" have missed salvation.
At the second coming all nations are judged. (As entire nations, not individuals)
At the second coming all the deeds of the saints are judged and we are given our rewards.

1000 years later all the deeds of the unsaved are judged and they are cast into the lake of fire.

[RevLogos]

As I mentioned before, "heaven and earth" is a metaphor for both the Temple and the land of Israel (the Holy Land). Referring to the Temple, it was the place where "heaven and earth" met and where the presence - the Spirit - of God dwelt on earth (many references to this very thing in the OT). The "heaven and earth" metaphor for the Temple explains all of what you guys are arguing about if you'll investigate it.

So wherever you see Christ or an apostle talking about "heaven and earth", replace it with the word "Temple."

So why should we believe the heaven and earth are metaphors for the temple?

A while back I read a bunch of Harold Camping's writings. He turned everything into metaphors and allegory. This is what allowed him to reinterpret the Bible in any way he pleased. As we know this led to grave errors.

To be sure the Bible does have metaphors (i.e. wheat and tares) but usually these are obvious. But without a clear reason to believe, other than it sounds good and meets some preconceived notion of what the verses mean, I would be hesitant to assume a metaphor.

[the rookie]

Then how do you explain, " And there shall be no night there", and "neither light of the sun"[Rev_22:5]???

Pretty simple: where is "there"?

And just because something is not needed does not mean that it therefore ceases to exist.

If there will be no sunlight, that means there would be no sun, as in our current heaven. Certainly, at least the heaven is a "new" one, not the old one. Same for the earth, it will be a "new" one, not the old one but refurbished.

That's inference, and not explicitly stated in that text or any other. In fact, there are a number of texts that assert the opposite.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

***********

Yes, I'm getting a "new body" as well - this body, resurrected and glorified, or "made new". He makes all things new. By "re-newing" them.

Look at the Greek for "shall be dissolved" in 2Peter 3:12, speaking about the heavens at the Lord's return.

G3089
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.

Yes, I understand the Greek term. It's also associated with the "elements" not the earth or the sun. Again, you are inferring something that the text does not assert.

[Vanderhoven7]

I'm not sure this is totally relevant but....I remember as a young Christian in my early twenties worrying about the rapture at the end of the world. I felt like such a failure, lacking faith, and concerned especially that I might be left behind. In one moment of real discouragement and anxiety Jesus spoke to my spirit...and said, "Rick...if I won't leave you now, I won't leave you then". His voice is precious. No need to be anxious about anything when Jesus is your Lord and Saviour.

[Raybob]

Well I have never studied the standard premill position on this, the way I see it, the last day is the second coming which is the last day of this current age. Some amills then normally point to verses that show that there is a judgment on the last day. Which I agree with because there are 3 judgments at the second coming and then another judgment 1000 years later at the great white throne.

At the second coming coming all mankind is judged worthy or unworthy to be resurrected. Those who are "left behind" have missed salvation.
At the second coming all nations are judged. (As entire nations, not individuals)
At the second coming all the deeds of the saints are judged and we are given our rewards.

1000 years later all the deeds of the unsaved are judged and they are cast into the lake of fire.

You see three judgment days. The bible consistantly speaks of a single day of judgment. I'll prefer to believe the bible, thank you.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[John146]

It does make sense, as it relates to hundreds of other passages on the subject.

Even then, I don't believe that the heavens and the earth pass away as you understand it. The heavens and earth pass away in the same manner that my mortal frame "passes away" - it is renewed, or made new. "Behold, I make all things new!" Does that mean "all new things" or "all things made new"? In the case of the mortal body, anyone alive at the Second Coming of Christ is caught up in the air to be with Him, and in the twinkling of an eye, they are "made new" - from corruptible to incorruptible. Their former body "passes away" (it is no longer what it once was) and is immediately glorified (transfigured into what it always will be).

The earth and the heavens undergo the same transformation - a "glorification" of the heavens and the earth in which the old order passes away and all things are made new. Peter is describing for us how comprehensive that process is (down to the elements themselves) as a means of communicating something else entirely: how incompatible a Holy God is with any manner of sin or defilement.

That's why Peter's "therefore" pertains to our lifestyle - in light of the comprehensive renovation of the earth to remove sin, how then shall we live?

That's why we need to beware of isolating the passage, which can cause us to miss the immediate point (Peter's call to holiness in the light of present false grace teaching and future cleansing fire) and the larger storyline (the transformation / renovation of the earth and the heavens into something "made new" in holiness).

Some think this is an amil vs. premil issue but plenty of amils like myself would agree with what you said here. We know that our bodies will not be annihilated but will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54). So, we can say that our mortal bodies will have passed away and changed into immortal bodies rather than saying our bodies will be annihilated and replaced with entirely new and different bodies. It isn't that our bodies will cease to exist, it's that they will be changed and will then exist forever. Similarly, scripture says that the heavens and earth will pass away, but also says the heavens and the earth will be changed.

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The Greek word translated as "changed" in Heb 1:12 (allassō) is the same Greek word translated as "changed" in 1 Cor 15:51-52. So, I would say that will be similar to what will happen with our bodies. The heavens and the earth will not be annihilated, they will be changed (renewed) and will then be known as the new heavens and new earth.

[Raybob]

Pretty simple: where is "there"?

And just because something is not needed does not mean that it therefore ceases to exist.

The text says there is the "new earth".

Raybob said: Look at the Greek for "shall be dissolved" in 2Peter 3:12, speaking about the heavens at the Lord's return.

G3089
luō
loo'-o
A primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.

Yes, I understand the Greek term. It's also associated with the "elements" not the earth or the sun. Again, you are inferring something that the text does not assert.

Hmm.. the text of 2Pet 3:12 speaks of "the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved". Genesis 1 tells us the moon and sun are in the firmament of heaven. Are you saying that when the heavens melt, that includes everything in the heavens 'except the sun and moon'?


2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[Raybob]

Some think this is an amil vs. premil issue but plenty of amils like myself would agree with what you said here. We know that our bodies will not be annihilated but will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54). So, we can say that our mortal bodies will have passed away and changed into immortal bodies rather than saying our bodies will be annihilated and replaced with entirely new and different bodies. It isn't that our bodies will cease to exist, it's that they will be changed and will then exist forever. Similarly, scripture says that the heavens and earth will pass away, but also says the heavens and the earth will be changed...

Eric, that would mean that the people 'caught up' on that last day, will have a different type of body than all the other saints that had passed away previously. Since all those saints that passed away before the Lord's return will get new bodies, why would those alive only get re-constituted bodies? Does that make sense?

[John146]

Well I have never studied the standard premill position on this, the way I see it, the last day is the second coming which is the last day of this current age. Some amills then normally point to verses that show that there is a judgment on the last day. Which I agree with because there are 3 judgments at the second coming and then another judgment 1000 years later at the great white throne.

At the second coming coming all mankind is judged worthy or unworthy to be resurrected.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected and judged on the day of the second coming, which will be the last day (John 5:28-29, John 6:40, John 12:48, Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46, etc.).

Those who are "left behind" have missed salvation.

Those who are left behind will be killed just as those who were left behind on the earth rather than going onto the ark in Noah's day were killed.

At the second coming all nations are judged. (As entire nations, not individuals)

Again, this is not taught anywhere in scripture. Where do you believe this is taught?

At the second coming all the deeds of the saints are judged and we are given our rewards.

It isn't just the deeds of the saints that will be judged at the second coming. It will be the deeds of "every man", as in all of mankind. The goats (wicked) will be judged at that time as well, as can be clearly seen in Matt 25:31-46.

Matt 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Tell me how "every man" becomes every saved man (person) but not any unsaved men (people)?

Rev 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Does "every man" mean every person in this passage or only every saved person? If you read the verses that follow it's clear that it refers to every person. There's no basis for thinking that Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12 are not also speaking of every person, including the lost.

1000 years later all the deeds of the unsaved are judged and they are cast into the lake of fire.

It can't be a thousand years later when scripture teaches that the unsaved will be judged at Christ's second coming along with all of the saved (as is clearly portrayed in passages like Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50 and Matt 25:31-46).

[John146]

Eric, that would mean that the people 'caught up' on that last day, will have a different type of body than all the other saints that had passed away previously.

Why do you say that? All saints, dead or alive, will be changed on that day. In the case of the dead in Christ they first have to be bodily resurrected before being changed while those who are alive and remain will just be changed. All believers will then have the same type of body, which will be immortal.

Since all those saints that passed away before the Lord's return will get new bodies, why would those alive only get re-constituted bodies? Does that make sense?

It isn't just those who are alive and remain whose bodies will be changed, Raybob. The bodies of the dead in Christ will be changed as well. Paul said we will all be changed and he included the dead in Christ amongst the "all" he was referring to.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Not all believers will die but all believers, including the dead in Christ, will be changed.

[Stormcrow]

So why should we believe the heaven and earth are metaphors for the temple?

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Start there.

[Raybob]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Start there.

Most of us don't have that kind of time. If it 'starts' there, then where does it end? Just get to the point. I, for one, can't see any possible relation as anything you've brought up so far.

[SirToady]

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not. God does not lie.

God knows we sin, we are not perfect, but this is why Christ died - for all our sins. This however does not give license to continue - we all struggle everyday to be worthy of His Grace.

[DurbanDude]

You see three judgment days. The bible consistantly speaks of a single day of judgment. I'll prefer to believe the bible, thank you.

.

I said that I see 3 judgments at the second coming, I said nothing about 3 judgment days ??

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

You seem to be focussed on the word "THE" as if it means "THE ONLY". The Greek in most of the cases quoted does not even have the word "the", just saying "on day of judgment". The word "the" was added in by the English translators in most cases.

[divaD]

Most of us don't have that kind of time. If it 'starts' there, then where does it end? Just get to the point. I, for one, can't see any possible relation as anything you've brought up so far.

Lately I do have plenty of time, but I'm not going to waste my time pursuing something that's not even worth pursuing. There's not a single thing about the heaven and earth in that context that would even remotely lead me to think it's a metaphor for the temple. Even if heaven and earth can be used as a metaphor for the temple elsewhere in Scriptures, that doesn't automatically make it so here as well.