Christ's return

[DurbanDude]

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected and judged on the day of the second coming, which will be the last day (John 5:28-29, John 6:40, John 12:48, Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46, etc.).

.

For a judgment of the dead to occur, surely it would include a judgment of all makind? However scripture says that mortal makind will live on after the day of the Lord. Rev 19:15 says that unsaved nations will be ruled over with an iron rod. Rev 2 says that us christians will have authority over the nations at the second coming. Zechariah 14 says that there will be surviving Gentile nations after the day of the Lord. So does Joel 3. Isaiah says that there will be mortal long life after the day of the Lord. Ezekiel 38-48 indicates mortal nations and individuals survive into a new era after the day of the Lord. Rev 20 indicates that there will be a 1000 year reign after the souls that are waiting in heaven are resurrected.

Taking these scriptures into account, looking at the verses that you quote to support your position, when we read John 5 we see that in fact that day is not a literal 24 hour day, because verse 20-30 indicates a context of non-literal days, meaning a long period of time. In this context two seperate resurrections are mentioned.
John 6:40 does not mention the resurrection of all, it only mentions the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming.(this supports my position)
John 12:48 also agrees with what I said about the judgments at the second coming.
Matt 13:40-43 you see the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, yet verse 30 indicates that they are gathered in bundles first, and then cast into the fire. This parable is full of symbolism as parables are, seems to be symbolically indicating a period of "bundling", ie they are not thrown immediately into the lake of fire.
Same as Matthew 25, the results of disobedience is the lake of fire, but this does not happen immediately, the lake of fire occurs 1000 years later according to Rev 20

It can't be a thousand years later when scripture teaches that the unsaved will be judged at Christ's second coming along with all of the saved (as is clearly portrayed in passages like Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50 and Matt 25:31-46)

I agree that the unsaved will be judged at the second coming, isn't that exactly what I said?
Matthew 16 and Rev 22 are referring to REWARDS, not punishments, only the good deeds of man are judged at the second coming, not the bad deeds, which is what I am saying. (I wonder why there is no mention of punishment for deeds, just rewards)
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (I wonder why they are not burnt immediately?)

Rev 2 verse 5 says the following, you seem to have misquoted the verse:
2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

So I dealt with all your verses and introduced some of my own, over to you........

[John 8:32]

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected and judged on the day of the second coming, which will be the last day (John 5:28-29, John 6:40, John 12:48, Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46, etc.).

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[John146]

For a judgment of the dead to occur, surely it would include a judgment of all makind?

Surely.

However scripture says that mortal makind will live on after the day of the Lord.

No, it doesn't. Once 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs there will be no more mortals on the earth.

Rev 19:15 says that unsaved nations will be ruled over with an iron rod.

You're not taking Rev 19:15 in the proper context. The rod of iron will destroy them, as can be clearly seen in Psalm 2:8-9 and by the fact that Rev 19:15 says that Christ will tread them in the winepress of God's wrath. No one can survive that.

Rev 2 says that us christians will have authority over the nations at the second coming. Zechariah 14 says that there will be surviving Gentile nations after the day of the Lord. So does Joel 3. Isaiah says that there will be mortal long life after the day of the Lord. Ezekiel 38-48 indicates mortal nations and individuals survive into a new era after the day of the Lord.

None of those refer to the day of the Lord that Paul talks about in 1 Thess 5:1-6 or that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3. You don't seem to understand that there isn't just one day of the Lord mentioned in scripture. But there is only one future day of the Lord and that will bring with it complete destruction of the wicked on the day of Christ's return. None of the wicked will escape.

Rev 20 indicates that there will be a 1000 year reign after the souls that are waiting in heaven are resurrected.

No, it does not. It indicates that the souls of the dead in Christ live and reign in heaven with Him.

Taking these scriptures into account, looking at the verses that you quote to support your position, when we read John 5 we see that in fact that day is not a literal 24 hour day, because verse 20-30 indicates a context of non-literal days, meaning a long period of time.

What is "verse 20-30"?

In this context two seperate resurrections are mentioned.
John 6:40 does not mention the resurrection of all, it only mentions the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming.(this supports my position)
John 12:48 also agrees with what I said about the judgments at the second coming.

That would be the judgment described in Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15. Scripture does not allow for a thousand years to occur after the judgment of the wicked.

Matt 13:40-43 you see the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire, yet verse 30 indicates that they are gathered in bundles first, and then cast into the fire.

What does that matter? It still indicates that they will be cast into the fire at the end of the age which arrives upon the return of Christ.

Matt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This parable is full of symbolism as parables are, seems to be symbolically indicating a period of "bundling", ie they are not thrown immediately into the lake of fire.

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. It clearly says the wicked will be cast into the fire at the end of the age, not a thousand years after the end of the age.

Same as Matthew 25, the results of disobedience is the lake of fire, but this does not happen immediately, the lake of fire occurs 1000 years later according to Rev 20

Rev 20 does not trump Matt 25. They must agree with each other. According to Matt 25:31-46 the goats (wicked) are cast into everlasting fire right after Christ's second coming.

I agree that the unsaved will be judged at the second coming, isn't that exactly what I said?

I know what you believe. You don't believe that Rev 20:11-15 occurs until a thousand years after the second coming. But passages like Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50 and Matt 25:31-46 indicate otherwise.

Matthew 16 and Rev 22 are referring to REWARDS, not punishments, only the good deeds of man are judged at the second coming, not the bad deeds, which is what I am saying.

I'm surprised that you wouldn't know this already, but the word "reward" can be used both in terms of good rewards and bad rewards or punishment. The Greek word translated as "reward" in Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12 is misthos. This is from Strong's Greek Lexicon regarding that word:

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) dues paid for work

a) wages, hire

2) reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours

a) in both senses, rewards and punishments

b) of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours

c) of punishments

Here is an example where the word is first used in the sense of good rewards in verse 1 and then in the sense of punishment in verse 2:

Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

In both Matt 6:5 and Matt 6:16 the word is used similarly to how it is used in Matt 6:2 in terms of being punishment.

Here is another passage in which the word is used to refer to punishment:

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

So, there really should be no question that Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12 refer to both a good reward for believers and punishment for unbelievers at Christ's second coming. Especially since that is what is clearly portrayed in Matt 25:31-46.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (I wonder why they are not burnt immediately?)

Because they first have to stand before the throne and give an account of themselves before they are cast into the fire.

Rev 2 verse 5 says the following, you seem to have misquoted the verse:
2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I didn't even quote Rev 2:5, so I have no idea what you are referring to here.

[John146]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Quoting this passage does not prove anything. Where is your evidence to show that Christ will have already returned at that point?

[John 8:32]

Quoting this passage does not prove anything. Where is your evidence to show that Christ will have already returned at that point?

From Rev 19:11 onward leading to...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now couple this with...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Raybob]

From Rev 19:11 onward leading to...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now couple this with...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation is NOT a chronological book. Rev 20:4 speaks of the spiritual resurrection that every Christian goes through, whether they are martyred or not.

[John 8:32]

Revelation is NOT a chronological book. Rev 20:4 speaks of the spiritual resurrection that every Christian goes through, whether they are martyred or not.

It is all allegory and metaphor.

[John146]

From Rev 19:11 onward leading to...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You assume that Rev 19 and 20 are chronological, but I disagree. That one chapter follows the other does not necessarily mean the events described in them are chronological. Just look at Rev 11 and 12.

Now couple this with...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What about the fact that we are already kings and priests? Should that not be taken into consideration?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So, this could be speaking of us reigning right now as kings and priests or it could be speaking of us reigning on the new earth if you understand the new earth to be this earth in a renewed state. I don't see this verse as definitively supporting your view at all.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

How is this proof of your view? We will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) and we will then be with Him where He is, even "in the air". This can hardly be used as evidence that He will reign on the earth for a thousand years.

[DurbanDude]

I didn't even quote Rev 2:5, so I have no idea what you are referring to here.

I checked it again and this is what you said:

Rev 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Does "every man" mean every person in this passage or only every saved person? If you read the verses that follow it's clear that it refers to every person.

Rev 2:5 does not say that, you seem to have misquoted it.

[John 8:32]

You assume that Rev 19 and 20 are chronological, but I disagree. That one chapter follows the other does not necessarily mean the events described in them are chronological. Just look at Rev 11 and 12.

What about the fact that we are already kings and priests? Should that not be taken into consideration?

Show me your ten cities...

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

How are you doing with Ahmadinejad or (Ras)Putin? Are you ruling over them well?

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What are you reigning over? Notice that the tense is future? This is referring to a time after Christ returns...

Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

This happens after He returns.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So, this could be speaking of us reigning right now as kings and priests or it could be speaking of us reigning on the new earth if you understand the new earth to be this earth in a renewed state. I don't see this verse as definitively supporting your view at all.

How is this proof of your view? We will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) and we will then be with Him where He is, even "in the air". This can hardly be used as evidence that He will reign on the earth for a thousand years.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant (future tense) to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down (done deal) with my Father in his throne.

This is a time yet to come or do you have power over the nations now?

[John146]

I checked it again and this is what you said:


Rev 2:5 does not say that, you seem to have misquoted it.

No, I didn't misquote anything, I just put the wrong verse. I meant Romans 2:5, not Rev 2:5. So, I was asking you if the reference to "every man" in Romans 2:5 was referring to every person or just believers. It should be clear that it's referring to every person and I was using that as evidence to back up what I was saying "every man" referred to in Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12. Do you have any thoughts on what I said in post #63?

[John146]

Show me your ten cities...

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

How are you doing with Ahmadinejad or (Ras)Putin? Are you ruling over them well?

Don't be so silly. You understand that is from a parable, right? It's not as if Jesus has literally lent us money and that He will literally be checking to see how we handled the money He lent us. The money symbolically represents the gifts and talents that He has given us and He will be checking to see what we did with the gifts and talents He gave us and will reward us accordingly. But since it's a parable (made up story) it is not saying we will literally rule over cities. That is just symbolism for Him giving us authority of some kind. Reigning with Christ has nothing to do with ruling over cities or directly ruling over unbelievers. That is never taught in scripture. The bottom line is that parable does not support the idea of us reigning on the earth with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What are you reigning over?

All things because Christ reigns over all things (Eph 1:19-22) and I sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:5-6). Whatever He reigns over, we reign over as well because we are in Him. Do you not know that believers have authority even over evil spirits?

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Do you know that we who are in Christ are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37)? Why do you underestimate the authority that we currently have?

Why do you think that reigning with Christ has anything to do with bossing unbelievers around? It has to with our position of authority in Christ, not with directly bossing people around. We even have authority over evil spirits.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

This passage describes what it means to reign with Christ. We have authority because we are in Him and have our names "written in heaven".

Notice that the tense is future? This is referring to a time after Christ returns...

It wouldn't be a problem for my doctrine if that was referring to reigning in the future on earth since I believe the new earth will be this earth renewed. But, it can also be speaking of the present tense. I understand that "shall reign" gives the impression that it's speaking of the future but the same Greek word (basileuō) translated as "we shall reign" in Rev 5:10 is used in Matt 2:22 in the present tense.

Matt 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. 21And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee

This is not saying that Archelaus would reign in Judea in the future, it's saying He "did reign" or was reigning at that time in Judea.

But whether it's speaking of currently reigning on the earth or reigning on the earth in the future doesn't make a difference to me. It's not a problem for my doctrine either way.

Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

This happens after He returns.

If you think this is saying that He doesn't receive His kingdom until He returns then you are mistaken. Look at what it says just a few verses earlier:

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

The "certain nobleman" represents Jesus and the "far country" represents heaven. Notice that it indicates that He went to a far country/heaven to receive a kingdom. It was in heaven that He received the kingdom because when He ascended to heaven He was exalted to the right hand of the Father and was then given authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" (Eph 1:21).

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant (future tense) to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down (done deal) with my Father in his throne.

This is a time yet to come or do you have power over the nations now?

In a spiritual sense I do have authority over the nations now. I even have authority over "all the power of the enemy". But if those are speaking of a future time that isn't a problem for my doctrine because they don't say anything about ruling over mortal unbelievers on the earth.

[John 8:32]

Don't be so silly. You understand that is from a parable, right? It's not as if Jesus has literally lent us money and that He will literally be checking to see how we handled the money He lent us. The money symbolically represents the gifts and talents that He has given us and He will be checking to see what we did with the gifts and talents He gave us and will reward us accordingly. But since it's a parable (made up story) it is not saying we will literally rule over cities. That is just symbolism for Him giving us authority of some kind. Reigning with Christ has nothing to do with ruling over cities or directly ruling over unbelievers. That is never taught in scripture. The bottom line is that parable does not support the idea of us reigning on the earth with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Then where do we reign?

All things because Christ reigns over all things (Eph 1:19-22) and I sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:5-6). Whatever He reigns over, we reign over as well because we are in Him. Do you not know that believers have authority even over evil spirits?

I hate to tell you this, but you are sitting on earth behind a computer keyboard, and when does He consult you as you reign with Him?

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Do you know that we who are in Christ are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37)? Why do you underestimate the authority that we currently have?

How about if you who are reigning, humor me and bring peace to the mid-East?

Why do you think that reigning with Christ has anything to do with bossing unbelievers around? It has to with our position of authority in Christ, not with directly bossing people around. We even have authority over evil spirits.

Oh, I don't know...

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

This passage describes what it means to reign with Christ. We have authority because we are in Him and have our names "written in heaven".

It wouldn't be a problem for my doctrine if that was referring to reigning in the future on earth since I believe the new earth will be this earth renewed. But, it can also be speaking of the present tense. I understand that "shall reign" gives the impression that it's speaking of the future but the same Greek word (basileuō) translated as "we shall reign" in Rev 5:10 is used in Matt 2:22 in the present tense.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ seems to think that He will give every man his reward when He comes.

Matt 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. 21And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee

This is not saying that Archelaus would reign in Judea in the future, it's saying He "did reign" or was reigning at that time in Judea.

But whether it's speaking of currently reigning on the earth or reigning on the earth in the future doesn't make a difference to me. It's not a problem for my doctrine either way.

If you think this is saying that He doesn't receive His kingdom until He returns then you are mistaken. Look at what it says just a few verses earlier:

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

The "certain nobleman" represents Jesus, the "far country" represents heaven. Notice that it indicates that He went to a far country/heaven to receive a kingdom. It was in heaven that He received the kingdom because when He ascended to heaven He was exalted to the right hand of the Father and was then given authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" (Eph 1:21).

In a spiritual sense I do have authority over the nations now. I even have authority over "all the power of the enemy". But if those are speaking of a future time that isn't a problem for my doctrine because they don't say anything about ruling over mortal unbelievers on the earth.

Ahh, the same parable you upbraided me for using...

Don't be so silly. You understand that is from a parable, right? It's not as if Jesus has literally lent us money and that He will literally be checking to see how we handled the money He lent us. The money symbolically represents the gifts and talents that He has given us and He will be checking to see what we did with the gifts and talents He gave us and will reward us accordingly. But since it's a parable (made up story) it is not saying we will literally rule over cities. That is just symbolism for Him giving us authority of some kind. Reigning with Christ has nothing to do with ruling over cities or directly ruling over unbelievers. That is never taught in scripture. The bottom line is that parable does not support the idea of us reigning on the earth with Christ for a thousand years.

OK if you are going to use it, let's use it...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Notice that the reward is apportioned out at His return. Again I refer you to...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ gives every man his reward at His coming. Then we receive...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As shown in...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, andthey sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls ofthem that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, andwhich had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned withChrist a thousand years.

[John146]

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Then where do we reign?

That is talking about reigning on earth, obviously. I didn't say otherwise. You need to read my posts more carefully. I explained my understanding of that verse in depth already. What that verse doesn't say is that we will reign on the earth over unbelievers for a thousand years, so I don't see why you think that verse necessarily supports your view.

I hate to tell you this, but you are sitting on earth behind a computer keyboard, and when does He consult you as you reign with Him?

Do you have to be childish about this? I believe your understanding of His reign is flawed. You want me to think that Him reigning has something to do with Him bossing people around and telling them what to do the way an earthly ruler does but that isn't my understanding of His reign. What does it mean to you when He said that all power in heaven and earth was given to Him (Matt 28:18)? What does it mean to you when scripture says that He now reigns at the right hand of the Father "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" (Eph 1:21)?

How about if you who are reigning, humor me and bring peace to the mid-East?

Can we not have a discussion without you resorting to childish comments like this? How many times do I have to explain to you that I don't see references to us reigning in that way? What does it mean to you for us to right now be kings and priests (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:5,9) and to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:5-6)?

Oh, I don't know...

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

How exactly do you interpret this verse? What do you believe it means to have "power over the nations"? Be as specific as possible. Also, do you believe Jesus has power over the nations right now? If not, I suggest that you read Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-22.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ seems to think that He will give every man his reward when He comes.

That's fine with me. I haven't said otherwise. But what reward is that speaking about? That doesn't mean we don't receive any rewards or blessings even during this lifetime as well.

Ahh, the same parable you upbraided me for using...

I didn't upbraid you for using it. There's a lot to be learned from Christ's parables so I would never do that. What I did was point out that it was a parable and not meant to be taken literally as if it means we will literally inherit cities. It's not saying that just as it's not saying that Jesus has literally lent us money and is going to check and see how we handled it when He returns.

OK if you are going to use it, let's use it...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Notice that the reward is apportioned out at His return.

I didn't say otherwise. You need to read my posts more carefully.

Again I refer you to...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ gives every man his reward at His coming.

Again, I didn't say otherwise.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As shown in...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, andthey sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls ofthem that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, andwhich had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned withChrist a thousand years.

This verse (Rev 20:4) says absolutely nothing about reigning on the earth. It speaks of the souls of dead believers living and reigning with Christ. They are in heaven.

[buster]

What basically troubles me is that, in Matthew 5:48, the Bible says; "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect. But in Romans 3:10-18, the Bible says; "As it is written, there is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are like open graves, their tongues practice deceit, the poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes." And in fact, I have a mindset that, in order for one to be holy, one must have Jesus as savior and one must follow all 613 individual rules of the Law at all times that were listed by the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law.