Your Advert here
cure-real
Page 1 of 12 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 177

Thread: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    A rather interesting article I read recently. It has a relation to Christianity- in that, just as Christianity moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem, so did Judaism. The two did not chart the same exact path, of course.

    Tackling Tomorrow’s Problems
    By: Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks

    In her book The Watchman’s Rattle, subtitled Thinking Our Way Out of Extinction, Rebecca Costa delivers a fascinating account of how civilizations die. Their problems become too complex. Societies reach what she calls a cognitive threshold. They simply can’t chart a path from the present to the future.

    The example she gives is the Mayans. For a period of three and a half thousand years, between 2,600 BCE and 900 CE, they developed an extraordinary civilization, spreading over what is today Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Belize, with an estimated population of 15 million people.

    Not only were they master potters, weavers, architects and farmers. They developed an intricate cylindrical calendar system, with celestial charts to track the movements of the stars and predict weather patterns. They had their own unique form of writing, as well as an advanced mathematical system. Most impressively they developed a water-supply infrastructure involving a complex network of reservoirs, canals, dams and levees.

    Then suddenly, for reasons we still don’t fully understand, the entire system collapsed. Sometime between the middle of the eighth and ninth century the majority of the Mayan people simply disappeared. There have been many theories as to why it happened. It may have been a prolonged drought, overpopulation, internecine wars, a devastating epidemic, food shortages, or a combination of these and other factors. One way or another, having survived for 35 centuries, Mayan civilization failed and became extinct.

    Rebecca Costa’s argument is that whatever the causes, the Mayan collapse, like the fall of the Roman Empire and the Khmer Empire of 13th-century Cambodia, occurred because problems became too many and complicated for the people of that time and place to solve. There was cognitive overload, and systems broke down.

    It can happen to any civilization. It may, she says, be happening to ours. The first sign of breakdown is gridlock. Instead of dealing with what everyone can see are major problems, people continue as usual and simply pass their problems on to the next generation. The second sign is a retreat into irrationality. Since people can no longer cope with the facts, they take refuge in religious consolations. The Mayans took to offering sacrifices.

    Archeologists have uncovered gruesome evidence of human sacrifice on a vast scale. It seems that, unable to solve their problems rationally, the Mayans focused on placating the gods by manically making offerings to them. So apparently did the Khmer.

    Which makes the case of Jews and Judaism fascinating. They faced two centuries of crisis under Roman rule between Pompey’s conquest in 63 BCE and the collapse of the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 CE. They were hopelessly factionalized. Long before the Great Rebellion against Rome and the destruction of the Second Temple, Jews were expecting some major cataclysm.

    What is remarkable is that they did not focus obsessively on sacrifices, like the Mayans and the Khmer. Instead they focused on finding substitutes for sacrifice. One was gemillat chassadim, acts of kindness. Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai comforted Rabbi Joshua, who wondered how Israel would atone for its sins without sacrifices, with the words, “My son, we have another atonement as effective as this: acts of kindness, as it is written in Hosea 6:6, ‘I desire kindness and not sacrifice’ ” (Avot deRabbi Natan 8).

    Another was Torah study. The Sages interpreted Malachi’s words (1:11), “In every place offerings are presented to My name,” as referring to scholars who study the laws of sacrifice (Menachot 100a). “One who recites the order of sacrifices is as if he had brought them” (Ta’anit 27b).

    Another was prayer. Hosea had said, “Take words with you and return to the Lord … We will offer our lips as sacrifices of bulls” (Hosea 14:2-3), implying that words could take the place of sacrifice. “He who prays in the house of prayer is as if he brought a pure oblation” (Yerushalmi Berachot).

    Yet another was teshuvah. Psalms (51:19) says, “The sacrifices of God are a contrite spirit.” From this the sages inferred that “if a person repents it is accounted to him as if he had gone up to Jerusalem and built the Temple and the altar, and offered on it all the sacrifices ordained in the Torah” (Vayikra Rabbah 7:2).

    A fifth was fasting. Since going without food diminished a person’s fat and blood, it counted as a substitute for the fat and blood of a sacrifice (Berachot 17a). A sixth was hospitality. “As long as the Temple stood, the altar atoned for Israel, but now a person’s table atones for him” (Berachot 55a). And so on.

    What is striking in hindsight is how, rather than clinging obsessively to the past, sages like Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai thought forward to a worst-case-scenario future. The great question raised in Parshat Tzav, which is all about different kinds of sacrifice, is not, “Why were sacrifices commanded in the first place?” but rather, given how central they were to the religious life of Israel in Temple times, how did Judaism survive without them?

    The short answer is that overwhelmingly the prophets, the Sages, and the Jewish thinkers of the Middle Ages realized that sacrifices were symbolic enactments of processes of mind, heart and deed that could be expressed in other ways as well. We can encounter the will of God by Torah study, engage in the service of God by prayer, make financial sacrifice by charity, create sacred fellowship by hospitality, and so on.

    Jews did not abandon the past. We still refer constantly to the sacrifices in our prayers. But we do not cling to the past. Nor do we take refuge in irrationality. We think through the future and create institutions like the synagogue, house of study and school that could be built anywhere and sustain Jewish identity even in the most adverse conditions.

    That is no small achievement. The world’s greatest civilizations have all, in time, become extinct while Judaism has always survived. In one sense that was surely Divine providence. But in another it was the foresight of people like Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai who resisted cognitive breakdown, created solutions today for the problems of tomorrow, who did not seek refuge in the irrational, and who quietly built the Jewish future.

    Surely there is a lesson here for the Jewish people today. Plan generations ahead. Think at least 25 years into the future. Contemplate worst-case scenarios. Ask what we would do if… What saved the Jewish people was their ability, despite their deep and abiding faith, never to let go of rational thought, and despite their loyalty to the past, to keep planning for the future.
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    central pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,019

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    A rather interesting article I read recently. It has a relation to Christianity- in that, just as Christianity moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem, so did Judaism. The two did not chart the same exact path, of course.
    You have to be kidding. What do you mean by, "Christians moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem?"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    You have to be kidding. What do you mean by, "Christians moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem?"
    I mean exactly what I said.

    Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

    Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    central pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,019

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I mean exactly what I said.

    Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

    Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    For the first twelve years after Jesus death all of his followers were all believing Jews.

    The unbelieving Jew's had no choice but to give up animal sacrifice. They had no Temple and they had no priest, since they rejected their high priest, and rejected the Passover Lamb.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    The unbelieving Jew's had no choice but to give up animal sacrifice. They had no Temple and they had no priest, since they rejected their high priest, and rejected the Passover Lamb.
    Again.

    Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

    Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  6. #6

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    For the first twelve years after Jesus death all of his followers were all believing Jews.

    The unbelieving Jew's had no choice but to give up animal sacrifice. They had no Temple and they had no priest, since they rejected their high priest, and rejected the Passover Lamb.
    I think Fenris was talking about Christians from 31AD to 70AD. 39 years between Christ's resurrection and the destruction of the Temple.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    central pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,019

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Again. Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    Believing Jews said they no longer needed animal sacrifice because the ultimate Passover Lamb had come, once and for ever.


    Again. Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    Unbelieving Jews had rejected their Temple and their high priest, therefore they had no temple to sacrifice in, and no priest to make the offering.

  8. #8

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    A rather interesting article I read recently. It has a relation to Christianity- in that, just as Christianity moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem, so did Judaism. The two did not chart the same exact path, of course.
    Also, Jews did not forsake God and turn to the abominations of human sacrifice and other things. Jews have kept on keeping on serving God. We may be on different pages concerning Christianity, but remaining faithful to what you know does have rewards better than the Capitol One card.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Believing Jews ...

    Unbelieving Jews ...
    Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

    Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    Jews have kept on keeping on serving God.
    Of course I agree.

    But we're going to see different opinions on this subject.
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    central pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,019

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    Also, Jews did not forsake God and turn to the abominations of human sacrifice and other things. Jews have kept on keeping on serving God. We may be on different pages concerning Christianity, but remaining faithful to what you know does have rewards better than the Capitol One card.
    So rejecting the Son of God is serving God? God has abandoned the Jews because they have abandoned God.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    So rejecting the Son of God is serving God?
    This is meandering off topic. But I don't see how you can say that worshiping God is "not worshiping God".


    God has abandoned the Jews because they have abandoned God.
    How do we know that "God has abandoned the Jews"? Because you say so?
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    central pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,019

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This is meandering off topic. But I don't see how you can say that worshiping God is "not worshiping God".
    God offered up his only begotten Son as the Passover Lamb, and you reject the Lamb of God.

    How do we know that "God has abandoned the Jews"? Because you say so?
    Nearly two thousand years without a Temple, Priest, or King. Then look at the holocaust that drove the Jews back to Jerusalem only to have bombs lobed at them on a daily basis. You would think at some point they would realize that they have offended God.

  14. #14

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    God offered up his only begotten Son as the Passover Lamb, and you reject the Lamb of God.



    Nearly two thousand years without a Temple, Priest, or King. Then look at the holocaust that drove the Jews back to Jerusalem only to have bombs lobed at them on a daily basis. You would think at some point they would realize that they have offended God.
    You should remember this statement well.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    31,408

    Re: Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    God offered up his only begotten Son as the Passover Lamb, and you reject the Lamb of God.
    I worship the God of the bible. Just because you say it's insufficient doesn't make it so.



    Nearly two thousand years without a Temple, Priest, or King. Then look at the holocaust
    I don't pretend to be smart enough to understand all that God does.

    You would think at some point they would realize that they have offended God.
    Modern-day Israel is an amazing story. An economic, technological, scientific, military superpower.

    It's almost...almost...as if they're blessed by God. But we know that can't be possible, right?
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Animal Sacrifices
    By GreekAsianPanda in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Oct 6th 2009, 07:16 PM
  2. Sacrifices
    By fontz in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Mar 18th 2009, 02:23 AM
  3. Millennial Sacrifices???
    By wpm in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 209
    Last Post: Sep 14th 2008, 07:15 PM
  4. Sin sacrifices
    By diffangle in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Sep 10th 2007, 12:42 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •