Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

[rejoice44]

Wrong. God keeps his promises unilaterally. You salvation depends on it.

Leviticus 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; (Conditional)

Leviticus 26:9 For I will have respect to you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

Leviticus 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people.

Leviticus 26:14-15 But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; And if you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: (Again conditional)


Leviticus 26:17-18 And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. And if you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:23-24 And if you will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary to me; Then will I also walk contrary to you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:27-28 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary to you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:38 And you shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

Leviticus 26:38 40-42 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (Again conditional)


Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

God is always there for them, waiting. Yet it is still conditional that the Jews must repent and obey. (For there is no other way.)

[rejoice44]

It doesn't. I made the reference.

Why? When did Christians sacrifice animals?

[Fenris]

Why? When did Christians sacrifice animals?

Christians said that man once had to sacrifice animals, but that time is past.

So do Jews.

WaCKY!

[keck553]

Good question.

Well, as per Jewish understanding of Ezekiel 40-48, among other portions of the prophets, the rebuilt temple will in fact feature sacrifice. Mind you, as per Leviticus most sacrifices are for unintentional sin.

Reiterated in Hebrews 9 (verse 7).

[the rookie]

Why? When did Christians sacrifice animals?

The first 30 years (or so), after Pentecost, Jewish believers around Jerusalem would have participated in the sacrifices at some level. That's why the writer of Hebrews uses the language of "fading away into obsolescence" rather than "finished at the cross". When James tells Paul that he was accused of "preaching against Moses", Paul pays for a group of young men to take the Nazirite vow (which included an animal sacrifice) to absolve himself of the spurious charge - as he had done himself (including the animal sacrifice) during his season in Corinth.

[rejoice44]

Christians said that man once had to sacrifice animals, but that time is past.

So do Jews.

WaCKY!

Prior to the Jews disobedience in the wilderness the only animal sacrifice was the Passover Lamb, which represented Christ. When Christ came and sacrificed himself, the Lamb sacrifice became obsolete, since it was a picture for the Jews to recognize their Messiah. Not so wacky!

[rejoice44]

The first 30 years (or so), after Pentecost, Jewish believers around Jerusalem would have participated in the sacrifices at some level. That's why the writer of Hebrews uses the language of "fading away into obsolescence" rather than "finished at the cross". When James tells Paul that he was accused of "preaching against Moses", Paul pays for a group of young men to take the Nazirite vow (which included an animal sacrifice) to absolve himself of the spurious charge - as he had done himself (including the animal sacrifice) during his season in Corinth.

I believe it is a weak argument for animal sacrifice in light of what Paul said. Paul said, unto the Jews I became a Jew. We know that Paul said that he was second to none in his Jewishness. (Philippians 3:5)

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Corinthians 9:19-22 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[the rookie]

.....which means he participated in animal sacrifices. The apostle James was known for his adherence to Judaism within Jerusalem. The writer of Hebrews, etc., etc.

[the rookie]

Prior to the Jews disobedience in the wilderness the only animal sacrifice was the Passover Lamb, which represented Christ. When Christ came and sacrificed himself, the Lamb sacrifice became obsolete, since it was a picture for the Jews to recognize their Messiah. Not so wacky!

When was the book of Hebrews written? You seem to be making its words retroactive as if it was written around the time of the crucifixion?

[keck553]

Leviticus 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; (Conditional)

Unconditional promises:

Genesis 12:1-3 [12:1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: [12:2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing : [12:3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 13:14-17 [13:14] And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: [13:15] For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever . [13:16] And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth : so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. [13:17] Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee .

Genesis 15:4-5 [15:4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir . [15:5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Genesis 15:13-16 [15:13] And he said unto Abram , Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years ; [15:14] And also that nation , whom they shall serve, will I judge : and afterward shall they come out with great substance . [15:15] And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace ; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. [15:16] But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again : for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram , saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land , from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 17:1-8 [17:1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. [17:2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. [17:3] And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, [17:4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations . [17:5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham ; for a father of many nations have I made thee. [17:6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee . [17:7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee . [17:8] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God .

Genesis 17:15-16 [17:15] And God said unto Abraham , As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. [17:16] And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Genesis 17:19-20 [17:19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him . [17:20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son . And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

Genesis 22:16-18 [22:16] And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: [22:17] That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven , and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies ; [22:18] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed ; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (God's unconditional promise to Abraham)
Genesis 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake .

Genesis 28:12-16 [28:12] And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. [28:13] And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed ; [28:14] And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth , and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed . [28:15] And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of . [28:16] And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

Genesis 35:9-12 [35:9] And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him. [35:10] And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. [35:11] And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins ; [35:12] And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land .

Genesis 46:2-4 [46:2] And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob , Jacob. And he said, Here am I. [46:3] And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation: [46:4] I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again : and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.

Exodus 3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee ; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

Exodus 3:16-17 [3:16] Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: [3:17] And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey .

Exodus 3:20-21 [3:20] And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go . [3:21] And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty :

Exodus 6:6-8 [6:6] Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments : [6:7] And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God : and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. [6:8] And I will bring you in unto the land , concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage : I am the LORD.

Exodus 8:22-23 [8:22] And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there ; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. [8:23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people : to morrow shall this sign be. (God's unconditional promise to Pharaoh)
Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you , and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven .

Leviticus 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it , a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deuteronomy 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither . (God's unconditional promise to Moses)
Joshua 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Joshua 3:7 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee .
II Samuel 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest , that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house ; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

II Samuel 7:10-16 [7:10] Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime , [7:11] And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house . [7:12] And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom . [7:13] He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever . [7:14] I will be his father, and he shall be my son . If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: [7:15] But my mercy shall not depart away from him , as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. [7:16] And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever .

II Kings 20:5-6 [20:5] Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee : on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD. [20:6] And I will add unto thy days fifteen years ; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria ; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake .

Chronicles 7:9-14 [17:9] Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning , [17:10] And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house . [17:11] And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom . [17:12] He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever . [17:13] I will be his father , and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him , as I took it from him that was before thee: [17:14] But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore .

I Chronicles 7:9-14 [22:9] Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about : for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [22:10] He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever .

I Chronicles 16:16-19 [16:16] Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; [16:17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, [16:18] Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan , the lot of your inheritance; [16:19] When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.
Psalms 105:8-11 [105:8] He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. [105:9] Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; [105:10] And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: [105:11] Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan , the lot of your inheritance:

As a Chrisitan, you should not boast. You are as much as a lawbreaker as any Jew is. Your only boast is in Christ, not in your own doctrine. Here are some conditions for Christians -

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

[rejoice44]

When was the book of Hebrews written? You seem to be making its words retroactive as if it was written around the time of the crucifixion?

Not following you on this point.

[rejoice44]

As a Chrisitan, you should not boast. You are as much as a lawbreaker as any Jew is. Your only boast is in Christ, not in your own doctrine. Here are some conditions for Christians -

When did I boast?

[the rookie]

Not following you on this point.

The verse you were quoting from Hebrews 8:13 about the obsolescence of the sacrifices related to sin was written 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The writer of Hebrews said that (literally translated) "whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Or, "is disappearing")

You quoted this verse as if it was written in 30 AD, not 60 AD.

[rejoice44]

The verse you were quoting from Hebrews 8:13 about the obsolescence of the sacrifices related to sin was written 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The writer of Hebrews said that (literally translated) "whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Or, "is disappearing")

You quoted this verse as if it was written in 30 AD, not 60 AD.

I am sorry but I don't remember ever quoting this verse. Could you point me to the post.

[the rookie]

Prior to the Jews disobedience in the wilderness the only animal sacrifice was the Passover Lamb, which represented Christ. When Christ came and sacrificed himself, the Lamb sacrifice became obsolete, since it was a picture for the Jews to recognize their Messiah. Not so wacky!

Is there another verse you were basing this idea on?

Related to this question you asked:

Why? When did Christians sacrifice animals?

Point being, they did.