Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

[Lily]

A rather interesting article I read recently. It has a relation to Christianity- in that, just as Christianity moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem, so did Judaism. The two did not chart the same exact path, of course.

Can I be really honest? I've read other material by Jewish authors that really resounded with me. I didnt like this article and don't think I would have if I was Jewish.

The world’s greatest civilizations have all, in time, become extinct while Judaism has always survived. In one sense that was surely Divine providence. But in another it was the foresight of people like Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai who resisted cognitive breakdown, created solutions today for the problems of tomorrow, who did not seek refuge in the irrational, and who quietly built the Jewish future.

I think it is very bold for the author to want you to share credit for Jewish progress (by planning ahead and not acting irrationally in that you stopped offering animal sacrifices [but really only because there is no temple at present or you would probably still be offering them?] ). God always says "I brought you out... I gave you... I will bring you... I will give you..." Do you think it really has anything to do with the fact that the Jewish people now act rationally (and it must be so because they've "moved beyond offering animal sacrifices?") I don' think Moses would have ever taken any credit for making it to the promised land. Can you imagine him saying, "There it is, I see it - the promised land. Now, Joshua, we've acted brilliantly in making it this far. You guys go on and do as we've been doing... plan ahead and act rationally." They did no planning ahead, God led them every step of the way. When they did act rationally and try to plan ahead it always ended miserably. They had to rely on God completely (and irrationally). I'm very surprised the author barely acknowledges Divine providence in the article.

When a temple is rebuilt will you still feel that God is fine with offerings by mind, heart and deed or will that change again? See, I think you also understand that God would rather we offer of ourselves righteous thoughts, prayers and deeds than for us to have to offer sacrifices for sin. And we should do those things. And if we always and only did those things a blood sacrifice would never be necessary. However, because we do also sin (even unintentionally), a blood sacrifice is necessary. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makethan atonement for the soul.

As you know, Christians believe Jesus was the sacrifice that the previous sacrifices had foreshadowed and symbolized. So, it's not really that we've moved beyond animal sacrifices, it's just that we understand that which they foreshadowed/symbolized has now been sacrificed and no other sacrifice is necessary (except perhaps as a memorial in the future temple).

I find it very interesting that you will accept these solutions:

Since going without food diminished a person’s fat and blood, it counted as a substitute for the fat and blood of a sacrifice (Berachot 17a). A sixth was hospitality. “As long as the Temple stood, the altar atoned for Israel, but now a person’s table atones for him” (Berachot 55a)."

The Sages interpreted Malachi’s words (1:11), “In every place offerings are presented to My name,” as referring to scholars who study the laws of sacrifice (Menachot 100a). “One who recites the order of sacrifices is as if he had brought them” (Ta’anit 27b).

Hosea had said, “Take words with you and return to the Lord … We will offer our lips as sacrifices of bulls” (Hosea 14:2-3), implying that words could take the place of sacrifice. “He who prays in the house of prayer is as if he brought a pure oblation” (Yerushalmi Berachot).

Yet another was teshuvah. Psalms (51:19) says, “The sacrifices of God are a contrite spirit.” From this the sages inferred that “if a person repents it is accounted to him as if he had gone up to Jerusalem and built the Temple and the altar, and offered on it all the sacrifices ordained in the Torah” (Vayikra Rabbah 7:2).

But you won't accept that the unblemished lamb was symbolic of the Ultimate unblemished Sacrifice, Jesus? That may seem irrational, but so is thinking that because "going without food diminished a person’s fat and blood, it counted as a substitute for the fat and blood of a sacrifice."

[dan]

Again.

Christians said that "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

Judaism also said "we no longer need animal sacrifice in Jerusalem because..."

I had not heard that animal sacrifice had been outlawed in Jewish Sects, and I am aware of one sect, at least, that is still sacrificing animals.

What's the deal?

[Fenris]

Prior to the Jews disobedience in the wilderness the only animal sacrifice was the Passover Lamb

Not a sin sacrifice.

You're still resisting my point.

[Fenris]

Animal sacrifice is only obsolete because the Ultimate Lamb was sacrificed. The OP doesn't recognize that point

It is you who doesn't recognize my point.

Jews and Christians both say that animal sacrifice is not necessary at this time, although for different reasons.

It's a simple point, really.

[Fenris]

Does one replace the other? Holiness in Judaism is a temple holiness based on God's presence in a specific place...

While I understand why Christians view Judaism this way, Jews do not. Jews see holiness as something that manifests itself in this world when one carries out God's will.

See Leviticus 11. God gives a whole list of kosher and non-kosher animals, and ends the chapter with this:

⁴⁴ I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. ⁴⁵ I am the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

God isn't saying "Go hang out in a specific place because it's holy". He's saying "Be holy by doing the things I tell you to do". And that applies in any place- in the desert, where these laws were given; in Jerusalem during temple times; or even here in America today.

[Fenris]

I had not heard that animal sacrifice had been outlawed in Jewish Sects, and I am aware of one sect, at least, that is still sacrificing animals.

Who's sacrificing animals? Do tell.

[rejoice44]

Not a sin sacrifice.

Why was Abraham required to offer up Isaac if it wasn't to give Abraham a visual picture, to show Abraham that Isaac must die unless God provided a substitute. It was a picture to us all. In Adam all men must die, but God made a way of excape.

You're still resisting my point.

Wasn't the point of the article that Jews no longer need to offer an animal sacrifice, that God prefers the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving? This is true, and we hear this from David. But then David begged for mercy and not justice didn't he? Until you do things God's way, God will not hear you. You don't think God offered his Son, but he did, just like Abraham.

[Fenris]

Can I be really honest?

Sure, everyone else here is.

I've read other material by Jewish authors that really resounded with me. I didnt like this article and don't think I would have if I was Jewish.

Well I happen to be Jewish and I do like it.

I think it is very bold for the author to want you to share credit for Jewish progress

He pays credit to those who lived centuries or millenia ago. I don't see the problem.

(by planning ahead and not acting irrationally in that you stopped offering animal sacrifices [but really only because there is no temple at present or you would probably still be offering them?] ). God always says "I brought you out... I gave you... I will bring you... I will give you..." Do you think it really has anything to do with the fact that the Jewish people now act rationally (and it must be so because they've "moved beyond offering animal sacrifices?") I don' think Moses would have ever taken any credit for making it to the promised land. Can you imagine him saying, "There it is, I see it - the promised land. Now, Joshua, we've acted brilliantly in making it this far. You guys go on and do as we've been doing... plan ahead and act rationally." They did no planning ahead, God led them every step of the way. When they did act rationally and try to plan ahead it always ended miserably.

Really, every single time they planned it ended poorly?

Religious Jews do not doubt that the divine hand is in everything that happens. That does not absolve one from behaving in a rational manner and planning ahead. Indeed, the Talmud prohibits one from relying on a miracle. That doesn't mean that we lack faith, it means that we have to do what we have to do and God has to do what he has to do.

When a temple is rebuilt will you still feel that God is fine with offerings by mind, heart and deed or will that change again?

I have already answered this question.

See, I think you also understand that God would rather we offer of ourselves righteous thoughts, prayers and deeds than for us to have to offer sacrifices for sin.

Since no temple stands at this time, right now yes God would rather deeds than sacrifice.

And we should do those things. And if we always and only did those things a blood sacrifice would never be necessary. However, because we do also sin (even unintentionally), a blood sacrifice is necessary. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makethan atonement for the soul.

I'm sorry, this quote is out of context.


10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[c] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.

The chapter is about not consuming blood. It's not about atonement. God doesn't say "one only atones through blood."

As you know, Christians believe Jesus was the sacrifice that the previous sacrifices had foreshadowed and symbolized.

No way, really?

So, it's not really that we've moved beyond animal sacrifices, it's just that we understand that which they foreshadowed/symbolized has now been sacrificed and no other sacrifice is necessary (except perhaps as a memorial in the future temple).

So you basically say that we've moved beyond animal sacrifice. Jews say the same thing, though for different reasons.

I find it very interesting that you will accept these solutions:

Well, why not? They're based on biblical verses.

But you won't accept that the unblemished lamb was symbolic of the Ultimate unblemished Sacrifice, Jesus? That may seem irrational, but so is thinking that because "going without food diminished a person’s fat and blood, it counted as a substitute for the fat and blood of a sacrifice."

Let's not get into a "why Jews aren't Christian" discussion. The original topic stands well enough on it's own.

[Fenris]

Why was Abraham required to offer up Isaac if it wasn't to give Abraham a visual picture, to show Abraham that Isaac must die unless God provided a substitute. It was a picture to us all. In Adam all men must die, but God made a way of excape.

Two points. First of all, Jews see the story with Isaac as demonstrating that God does not desire human sacrifice. Secondly, Isaac wasn't a sin sacrifice either.

Wasn't the point of the article that Jews no longer need to offer an animal sacrifice, that God prefers the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving? This is true, and we hear this from David. But then David begged for mercy and not justice didn't he?

Why can't I emulate David and beg for mercy?

[rejoice44]

Which is it? You contradicted yourself within ten posts. The second half of your claim is the same ('the Jews have abandoned God'), but the first half of your claim does a complete one-eighty.

God does abandon the Jews when they are out of fellowship, the scripture teaches this over and over again. When they went into battle and had sin in the camp, such as Achan, then God would not help them.

God has not utterly abandoned them, in that if they repent and become obedient, God will again fight their battles.

God only abandons the Jews when they abandon God. God is always there waiting for them to repent.

[rejoice44]

Two points. First of all, Jews see the story with Isaac as demonstrating that God does not desire human sacrifice. Secondly, Isaac wasn't a sin sacrifice either.

There is the problem. The Jews do not look far enough. John the Baptist clearly declared that Jesus was the Lamb of God. If that is true, then you need look no further.

Why can't I emulate David and beg for mercy?

You can. Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Who is David's Lord?

[rejoice44]

Would you put your trust in Jesus if someone claiming to represent him was verbally beating you in the face? Of course not. That person would be a terrible representative of Jesus.

This isn't about defending Fenris, or 'coddling' him, or protecting his 'feelings'. (He's more than capable of doing any of those for himself anyway.) It's about a Christian making a huge racket about the Jesus whose overarching teaching is 'love' all the while failing to actually act in accordance with that teaching. And then refusing to accept the corrections from fellow Christians when they call that person out on it.

Read Matthew 23:27

Ecclesiastes 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

[Fenris]

There is the problem. The Jews do not look far enough.

That's a funny way to put it. Maybe you've looked too far, meandered far beyond what the bible actually says?

No, that's impossible.

You can.

OK, great. I emulate king David in my prayers. Happy now?

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Who is David's Lord

This is a mistranslation and it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[rejoice44]

Two points. First of all, Jews see the story with Isaac as demonstrating that God does not desire human sacrifice.

Correct he doesn't desire human sacrifice from us. We are all sinners and carry blemishes.

Secondly, Isaac wasn't a sin sacrifice either.

No he wasn't. The unblemished lamb's blood was the salvation of Isaac.

Why can't I emulate David and beg for mercy?

You can.

2 Samuel 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[Fenris]

Correct he doesn't desire human sacrifice from us. We are all sinners and carry blemishes.

Um. Wow. Dude, God doesn't prohibit human sacrifice because the person sacrificed has sins. God prohibited it because human sacrifice is an abomination.

No he wasn't. The unblemished lamb's blood was the salvation of Isaac.

Bible doesn't say that Isaac was "saved" anywhere. The whole story is about Abraham being tested, not Isaac being "saved" from sin or whatever.

You can.

Great.