Judaism moving beyond animal sacrifices

[John 8:32]

I know. Problem is, Jewish reading of the bible doesn't conclude that there will be a "first coming" and a "second coming".

As we have determined before, we see this differently and I try very hard to see both sides.

Well, according to you he's going to fulfill messianic prophecy like Ezekiel 37. That's be kinda hard to miss.

I do believe that He will return and fulfill Isa 2, Isa 11, Mic 4, etc. and then there is...

Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

And I think that I can say without fear of successful contradiction that this scripture has NOT been fulfilled yet and knocks the preterist view into a cocked hat.

[RevLogos]

A rather interesting article I read recently. It has a relation to Christianity- in that, just as Christianity moved beyond animal sacrifice in Jerusalem, so did Judaism. The two did not chart the same exact path, of course.

The Jews did not "move beyond" sacrifices. The rationale was a bit more pragmatic - there was no temple.

Some want to rebuild the temple and restart the sacrifices. Would that be, in your opinion, a step backwards?

[claybevan]

Sure. Off the top of my head

Isaiah 2:4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



Zechariah 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; 21 and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying: Let us go speedily to entreat the favour of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will go also. 22 Yea, many peoples and mighty nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favour of the LORD. 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'

AMOS 9:14 And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

And so on....

Hi there Fenris,
Would you entertain the idea that Zech 8:20 did already happen and also maybe Amos 9:14 although not immediately it has come to pass since Jesus came.
You are right in that there is no indication in the Torah that there would be 2 comings of the Messiah but then again it didn't say there wouldn't, or am I wrong?
Have to go they're queuing up to use the computer. Catch you later.

[Lily]

No. You don't get to do this. You brought up a topic, and when I try to examine it closely, you drop it?

The topic was: We need Gods direction and we need to follow it. When we don’t it ends badly. Do you disagree with that? If not, why do you keep insisting that I give you scripture to closely examine?

A few examples from The Exodus:

Ex 16:20, 32:1-7
Numbers 14, 16
Joshua 7

So then...blood isn't really required, is it?

For symbolic ritual sacrifices? No.

For the salvation and reconciliation that comes from “the” blood which the sacrifices are symbolic of? Yes.


Let me explain, more specifically, what Christians believe the burnt offerings represent:


The whole burnt offering emphasized Christs offering of Himself without spot to God in complete obedience to the will of God.

The meal offering represents the balance, fragrance and purity of that life which was offered.

The peace offering represents the reconciliation that was accomplished on the cross.

The sin and tresspass offerings emphasise the atoning nature of Christs sacrifice, saving men from all sin, past present and future.

Eh, not really sure what you're saying here...

I was comparing, again, what you believe about, what I call, the sacrifices of righteousness (you call them sacrifices that are made by mind, heart and deed).

You believe the animal sacrifices were symbolic of them.

Christians believe they are the types sacrifices that God prefers - sacrifices of love for Him and each other (already commanded in the law), rather than the sacrifice of blood that we need because we don‘t always love Him and each other as we should.

Well, the Soviet Union just about cracked up from socialism, didn't it?

It’s interesting that, while the Soviet Union was crumbling, religion was being oppressed and atheist propaganda was being thrown at the people. Not to mention the corruption and other evils that existed.

So, I still have to say that Godlessness and sin, as the Bible asserts, causes nations to fall, whether it’s because it creates problems that are too complex to solve or because God just punishes them outright. Either way it leads to destruction.

Of course there are some economic systems that work better than others in an imperfect world, and we should take that into account. However, I don't think any type of economy will thrive if the people don't make God central to their lives and be obedient to the laws of love for Him and each other. It will break down because of the complex issues that sin creates, and the money and time that must be used to deal with them.

He says that "focus[ing] obsessively on sacrifices" is irrational, which is true. Doesn't mean that sacrifice is irrational.

Perhaps it was your words “moving beyond animal sacrifices” that helped confuse the issue for me.

So, the author thinks it’s a step forward to be offering the substitute sacrifices, but he has no real issue with animal sacrifices as long as nobody begins obsessively focusing on them or any type of sacrifice.

Ok. I don't have a problem with that.

I think it's irrational that you keep focusing on him saying sacrifice is irrational, when he's said nothing of the sort.

No, I thought he was saying (implying) animal sacrifices are irrational. He was praising those who were smart enough to think ahead and find substitutes for them. You were talking of “moving beyond” them. The word “irrational” was used 3 or 4 times in relation to religion and sacrifices, and, it seemed, as opposed to the substitute sacrifices. It was a logical conclusion.

I might be slow, but I'm rational. Usually. Sometimes.

[Fenris]

Also according to me, He is not going to fulfill the following in the future, but He has already fulfilled it.


Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

So I could then say the same thing..that be kinda' hard to miss as well. Especially since the NT records that this event historically happened as predicted, and that many of the Jews recognized this event at the time, the fact this was said.


Matthew 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.


That's sort of strange behavior for those folks at the time, if there was no reason for them reacting like that.

K, so for you a guy riding a donkey is a strong proof. For me it's Jews regathered to Israel, a rebuilt temple, and world peace.

Obviously we're coming from differing perspectives.

[Fenris]

As we have determined before, we see this differently and I try very hard to see both sides.

So do I..............

[Fenris]

The Jews did not "move beyond" sacrifices. The rationale was a bit more pragmatic - there was no temple.

Some want to rebuild the temple and restart the sacrifices. Would that be, in your opinion, a step backwards?

In light of Ezekiel 40 to 48, no.

[Fenris]

Hi there Fenris,
Would you entertain the idea that Zech 8:20 did already happen

No. 8:23 definitely hasn't happened.

In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you

and also maybe Amos 9:14

No.


15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

You are right in that there is no indication in the Torah that there would be 2 comings of the Messiah but then again it didn't say there wouldn't, or am I wrong?

Yeah but it's kind of a big thing to not get mentioned.

Have to go they're queuing up to use the computer. Catch you later.

Looking forward to it.

[Fenris]

The topic was: We need Gods direction and we need to follow it. When we don’t it ends badly. Do you disagree with that? If not, why do you keep insisting that I give you scripture to closely examine?

A few examples from The Exodus:

Ex 16:20, 32:1-7
Numbers 14, 16
Joshua 7

What are these examples of? Willfully disobeying God. That's not the same thing as saying that we can't to anything without God's direction.

Let me explain, more specifically, what Christians believe the burnt offerings represent:

Yes these are all interesting concepts. The problem is that they are not specifically spelled out in the bible. If one has the Christian perspective, then they follow from that. But they're not the only way to see them.

I was comparing, again, what you believe about, what I call, the sacrifices of righteousness (you call them sacrifices that are made by mind, heart and deed).

You believe the animal sacrifices were symbolic of them.

Christians believe they are the types sacrifices that God prefers - sacrifices of love for Him and each other (already commanded in the law), rather than the sacrifice of blood that we need because we don‘t always love Him and each other as we should.

As above.

It’s interesting that, while the Soviet Union was crumbling, religion was being oppressed and atheist propaganda was being thrown at the people. Not to mention the corruption and other evils that existed.

The Soviet Union didn't fall because they oppressed religious people. It fell because socialism (certainly the way they practiced it) doesn't work.

Of course there are some economic systems that work better than others in an imperfect world, and we should take that into account. However, I don't think any type of economy will thrive if the people don't make God central to their lives and be obedient to the laws of love for Him and each other. It will break down because of the complex issues that sin creates, and the money and time that must be used to deal with them.

If you'd like to believe this, that's fine.

Perhaps it was your words “moving beyond animal sacrifices” that helped confuse the issue for me.

So, the author thinks it’s a step forward to be offering the substitute sacrifices, but he has no real issue with animal sacrifices as long as nobody begins obsessively focusing on them or any type of sacrifice.

Ok. I don't have a problem with that.

Great. Agreement!

No, I thought he was saying (implying) animal sacrifices are irrational. He was praising those who were smart enough to think ahead and find substitutes for them. You were talking of “moving beyond” them. The word “irrational” was used 3 or 4 times in relation to religion and sacrifices, and, it seemed, as opposed to the substitute sacrifices. It was a logical conclusion.

ok.

I might be slow, but I'm rational. Usually. Sometimes.

Nah you've been pretty sharp here.

[rejoice44]

No. 8:23 definitely hasn't happened.

In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you

It happened, as we can see in Galatians 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

It happened at Corinth, Ephesus, Antioch, Smyrna, Sardis, Laodicea, Colossae, Philadelphia, Pergamus, Galatia, and on and on.

It was the Jews that testified of the Messiah and the world has never been the same since.

[Fenris]

It happened, as we can see in Galatians [FONT="]4:15[/FONT] Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

You try too hard. Chapter 8 has many things that have not yet happened.

Verse 19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah."

Has not yet happened. Most Christians don't even know what fasts God is talking about.

20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”

has not happened.

13 Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing

Has not happened.

7 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. 8 I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God. ”

After Jesus's time, the opposite happened.

It was the Jews that testified of the Messiah

No, it was not "the Jews".

[rejoice44]

[QUOTE]

You try too hard. Chapter 8 has many things that have not yet happened.

Verse 19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah."

Has not yet happened. Most Christians don't even know what fasts God is talking about.

To your way of thinking it hasn't, but from where I stand as a Christian it has.

Jeremiah 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”

has not happened.

And how many peoples of nations go to Jerusalem every year because it is the birthplace of their saviour?

13 Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing

Has not happened.

Ah, but they have, to untold millions.

7 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. 8 I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God. ”

After Jesus's time, the opposite happened.

The opposite didn't happen to the Jews that accepted their Messiah.

No, it was not "the Jews".

It is recorded that thousands of Jews accepted Christ. Were there only seven thousand in Israel that had not bowed their knee to Baal?

1Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

[Fenris]

To your way of thinking it hasn't, but from where I stand as a Christian it has.

It has nothing to do with a "way of thinking".

The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah.

This has not happened. Jews are still fasting on those days and Christians don't celebrate them as festivals.

And how many peoples of nations go to Jerusalem every year because it is the birthplace of their saviour?

And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”

Nobody does this.

Ah, but they have, to untold millions.

For most of the last 2000 years the word "Jew" has been an insult, not a blessing. Especially, sadly, by so-called Christians.

The opposite didn't happen to the Jews that accepted their Messiah.

The Jews who accepted Jesus didn't go into exile by the Romans? Do tell.

It is recorded that thousands of Jews accepted Christ. Were there only seven thousand in Israel that had not bowed their knee to Baal?

Lol. You would never say that "the Jews" were faithful when a few thousand didn't accept Baal. So how can you say that "the Jews" accepted Jesus when only a few thousand did?

[John 8:32]

It has nothing to do with a "way of thinking".

The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah.

This has not happened. Jews are still fasting on those days and Christians don't celebrate them as festivals.

Well, some of us celebrate the ones listed in Lev 23.

And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”

Nobody does this.

YET, and I emphasis YET. The day is coming...


Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

For most of the last 2000 years the word "Jew" has been an insult, not a blessing. Especially, sadly, by so-called Christians.

Not all of us.

The Jews who accepted Jesus didn't go into exile by the Romans? Do tell.



Lol. You would never say that "the Jews" were faithful when a few thousand didn't accept Baal. So how can you say that "the Jews" accepted Jesus when only a few thousand did?

Future event...

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

[Fenris]

Well, some of us celebrate the ones listed in Lev 23.

The fasts aren't mentioned in Leviticus 23, and nobody is celebrating them. Either this is a false prophecy, or it hasn't happened yet.

YET, and I emphasis YET.

So do I!

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.




Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Yep. Has not yet happened.

Not all of us.

I never said all of you. On the contrary, I only have positive things to say about American Christians. My point only being that

Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing

Has not yet happened.

Future event...

Again, I agree. Rejoice44 will weigh in soon that he does not...