Murder is a sin, Killing is not.Originally Posted by tea
Example:
A American killing Nazis in WW2 would not be a sinful act.
A German CITIZEN Killing Nazis in WW2, would perhaps be a sinful act. For it would be rebellion and murder
guest
Murder is a sin, Killing is not.
Example:
A American killing Nazis in WW2 would not be a sinful act.
A German CITIZEN Killing Nazis in WW2, would perhaps be a sinful act. For it would be rebellion and murder
fellow servant
The Nazis were, and are, murderers.
The Bible must be wrong when it says to kill murderers, huh?
GAL 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?
AMOS 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Aufgepaßt - ich komme!
I suppose I'll bring up that oft-repeated quote from Edmund Burke:
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Leaving behind the last few pages of distinctly American discussion, there does seem to be a somewhat awkward conflict. That is the conflict between obedience towards God and love of one's neighbour. Well, supposed obedience towards God and supposed love of one's neighbour. Do you, in obedience to God, allow the dictatorship that has ruined a country to continue to treat its citizens as worthless, as a country such as North Korea might? Do you, in obedience to God, allow the dictatorships that have killed tens of millions - Stalin, Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. - to continue to operate? It is, of course, a distinction without a difference to say that it is wrong to rebel by means of violence and demonstration, only to then attempt to subvert a nation through the changing of their hearts. You are rebelling in either instance, and if we're to be consistent then let's stop focusing on the extremes and hone in on the reality that if rebellion is sin, then all forms of rebellion are sin. Preaching Christ in a country that has made Christianity anathema is sinful rebellion just as assassinating the leaders of these countries is sinful rebellion; just as it would be sinful rebellion to feed the disabled in a country which seeks the creation of the Übermensch. Whether I overthrow you with violence or my own martyrdom, I seek to overthrow you regardless. Whether I shoot you through the heart or you accept Christ into your heart and a country is changed, it was changed because someone rebelled against the status quo.
There is only one country that exists wherein a Christian is not a rebel, and it is God's country -- of course I'm not speaking of the U.S.A. or Israel. And it isn't necessarily sin to 'overthrow a dictatorship' should the motivation be pure (Anabaptists, stop before you begin). If it were, then absurd would be the whole of Christian experience and obedience to Christ, lest we forget that it was Christ who rebelled against the order of the world.
guest
Hence why that would be a joyful thing for a American Christian to do.
To The German... if they wanted to do that .. they would need to repatriate to the side of the good guys..
guest
Christ being God, and God having ruler ship of all....
Not sure how one would come to that conclusion.
Senior Member
A question for the last 3 posters, Colight, Dan, and Athanasius.
Is a christian who is killing in a war being obedient to
Philippians 4:5
'Let your gentleness be evident to all. '
Aufgepaßt - ich komme!
I am, of course, referring to 'the world' as being in sinful disorder, and in many places being in blatant opposition to God. Now within the context of Jesus' human existence, he surely did live in opposition to the order of our fallen, blatantly opposed-to-God world. I call that rebellion and I don't think it's a negative thing at all. My point being, ultimately, that Jesus didn't come to earth and say "Well, this is the way things are" and then go with the flow, as it were, preaching some good-news message. One of the results of Jesus loving us was the defeat of death, the conquering of sin, the righting that which was wronged by Adam. By way of loose analogy I imagine it would be as if a Christian were to enter Stalinist Russia, preach a good-news message but then do absolutely nothing about the conditions of Russian Christians. That, as Dostoevsky, being the good Russian that he is, would immediately point out is not really loving someone at all. I do indeed affirm that Christ is Lord of all creation, but that does not mean that He did not set Himself in opposition to certain things, such as the work of Satan, the sinfulness of humanity, etc.
As I have yet to make mention of killing, I'll leave this question to Colight and Dan.
guest
gentleness = ἐπιεικής epieikēs
1) seeming, suitable
2) equitable, fair, mild, gentle
It is fair and seeing that when you government calls upon you to help being down those in opposition to your rulers that you answer that call. And answer it with the up most of the strength God gives you.
Senior Member
I see you highlight fair , but not mild. Is killing someone in war mild?
Senior Member
gen·tle/ˈjentl/
Adjective:
(of a person) Mild in temperament or behavior; kind or tender.
Verb:
Make or become gentle; calm or pacify.
Synonyms:
adjective. soft - mild - tender - bland - kind - meek - noble
verb. tame
And you didn't bother about the word gentle either. It s where the word gentleness comes from.
Is killing in war gentle?
guest
Is allowing your neighbors and family to be killed and enslaved being gentle?
Posting Freak
I think its incredibly important and telling to consider the political situation in the Roman Empire at the time of Christ. We can all imagine a half-construed image of an ancient power with an aristocracy and persecution for some. But what is even more interesting is that not only did Christ live in a time with a Roman rule with extreme degrees of centralized power, but it was in a time shortly after Rome took a significant step backwards in terms of individual political freedoms and democracy.
Democracy originally came from Greece, starting in one of the city states. This tradition was loosely adopted by early Rome, which would grow into the Roman republic. They had a ruler, but also a senate and the system was designed so one person would not have too much power. There was slaverly, large-scale classism and plenty of predjudice, but there was also voting for some citizens, public political debate and real balancing of powers. This changed suddenly, when around 40BC Julius Ceasar decided not to disband the army at the Rubicon river according to tradition, and instead used it to march back into Rome to seize power. In a very short period of time, real democracy dissapeared and the age of the Emperors had begun. Julius was killed but absolute power in one individual lived onward. Not more than a generation later, if that, Christ was born and lived. So a society was was used to a degree of potitical freedom was cast into the bonds of rule by dicate by what was essentially a king. In that context, Christ told people that the government had earthly authority, and that Ceasar was to be honored. The example we cite most often is paying of taxes.
This does complicate the issue of a worthwhile struggle against evil. A person or group of people who centralize power and then abuse it seem like a legitimate target when considering Hitler or Stalin, but what about the British empire? What about civil law today. What about when corporate kings use their power to remove rights and opportunites from the middle class and impoverish them for their own gain as is happening today? Does capitalist control and abuse by a powerful few have a different standard than state-enforced control and abuse by a few? I'm not sure what the answer is to this.
Last edited by NHL Fever; May 16th 2012 at 05:09 PM.
Senior Member
You fail to answer the question!
Is killing in war gentle?
We are not talking about neighbors and killing, the question was about war, please answer the question.
Senior Member
Yes all governments are corrupt on this earth, there is only one that isn't and that s the government of God, commonly known as the Kingdom.
Today, look at the U.S.A a new law recently passed, the police are allowed to strip search anyone for any offence, including a faulty tail light on their car.
guest
Gentleness is not a valid translation for ἐπιεικής epieikēs in that passage...
Therefore your question and line of thought on this verse is mute.
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