Is Jesus God

[David Taylor]

note when jesus teachers us how to pray in luke ch 11 our father in heaven ,luke 21 jesus says i thank you father lord of heaven and earth ,when jesus died on the cross jesus said ,father why have you forsaken me ,note that jesus himself never claimed to be GOD,JESUS always called GOD father .

Jesus was both God and man.

Jesus took on second nature, robing himself in Humanity, when He chose to be incarnated, to save us from our sins.

If Jesus is not God, the scriptures are broken, and we have no saviour.

Scripture tells us YHWH alone is God, YHWH alone is Saviour and Redeemer, and Scripture tells us that Jesus is YHWH.

There is no saviour if Jesus isn't YHWH....a mortal-only Jesus who is not God cannot save Himself from His own sins, let-alone save everyone else from their sins.

[allyc33]

vlad

We all have (and all should respect one anothers) different beliefs. There seems to be a majority leaning towards Trinity... Personally, I believe the Father and Son are separate as well .. There are scriptures that I feel clearly support the three not being one in the same..

But first: "Only Begotten Son" is used many times throughout the Bible.. We know and agree that when this term is used it is speaking of Jesus.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word begotten in the Dictionary is defined as: A past participle of beget.
The word Beget in the Dictionary is defined as
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce.

If the two were one how could one sire the other? or produce the other? (Logically) one of the two had to have a beginning if he was produced.
The only "begotten" son of God.

Mark 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (KJV)

There are quite a few more scriptures that show a separation of the two.

I know this (1 more) scripture has been argued... but in the case of the trinity .v. non-trinity, most are anyway so Im putting it in as well ... It is a beautiful scripture.. Of course everyone has and is entitled to their own thoughts, feelings and opinions. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

We all realize the Trinity .v. Non- Trinity will always be one of the biggest debates among people. But God gave us the gift of free will.. and the ability to think and make our own decisions.
Which ever way each one of us chooses to believe.. In the end, I wonder if it will matter to HIM.??

[John 8:32]

vlad

We all have (and all should respect one anothers) different beliefs. There seems to be a majority leaning towards Trinity... Personally, I believe the Father and Son are separate as well .. There are scriptures that I feel clearly support the three not being one in the same..

But first: "Only Begotten Son" is used many times throughout the Bible.. We know and agree that when this term is used it is speaking of Jesus.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word begotten in the Dictionary is defined as: A past participle of beget.
The word Beget in the Dictionary is defined as
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce.

If the two were one how could one sire the other? or produce the other? (Logically) one of the two had to have a beginning if he was produced.
The only "begotten" son of God.

Mark 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (KJV)

There are quite a few more scriptures that show a separation of the two.

I know this (1 more) scripture has been argued... but in the case of the trinity .v. non-trinity, most are anyway so Im putting it in as well ... It is a beautiful scripture.. Of course everyone has and is entitled to their own thoughts, feelings and opinions. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

We all realize the Trinity .v. Non- Trinity will always be one of the biggest debates among people. But God gave us the gift of free will.. and the ability to think and make our own decisions.
Which ever way each one of us chooses to believe.. In the end, I wonder if it will matter to HIM.??

Your case would be more valid if you could explain...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and from it show Christ was not the Word who was God.

P.S. I don't believe you can.

[ChristianCoffee]

Your case would be more valid if you could explain...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and from it show Christ was not the Word who was God.

P.S. I don't believe you can.

I can tell you now that it cannot be done: I tried. I "failed". He revealed His Truth to me. It took a long time for it to sink in, but I know, without a shadow of a doubt, what I believe and know is the truth.

In Him,

CC

Romans 8:15-17

[Bandit]

So, let me ask the doubters, what is the issue with Jesus being God?

[Toner44]

So, let me ask the doubters, what is the issue with Jesus being God?

I don't think they're doubting if Jesus is God. I think my post #27 of this thread made that pretty clear. I think the confusion is still over whether they're separate God heads (beings) that form God. That is what I believe...that if God is powerful enough to be God that he could have separate God heads to the same body.

I find it very difficult to believe we'll have to wait in line to see Jesus in Heaven. I believe we'll all have Jesus next to us though He'll also be next to the father. God built earthly logic...but he doesn't have to follow it.

[glad4mercy]

1. The First and the Last. Who is HE?

a. YHWH IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus says the LORD ( YHWH) * the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD ( YHWH )*of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.

* LORD, ( with all capital letters), always translates YHWH.

Isaiah 48:12 - Listen to me. O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

b. The First and the Last is the same person as the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:13- I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

c. The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:8- I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is , and which was , and which is to come , the Almighty.

d. According to Revelation 1: 17, Jesus is the First and the last.

Revelation 1: 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth , and was dead; and, behold , I am alive for evermore , Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Therefore...

JESUS IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST!!! ( Revelation 1:17)
AsThe First and the Last, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. ( Revelation 22:13)
As the Alpha and Omega, Jesus is the Almighty. ( Revelation 1:8)
As the Almighty, Jesus is YHWH. ( Isaiah 44:6)
YHWh is God's covenant name.

2. The Blessed Three.

2 Corinthians 13: 14-The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

Matthew 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

1 Peter 1: 2 lect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

Revelation 1: 4 Johnto the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come ; and from the seven Spirits which arebefore his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that lovedus, and washedus from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

3. The Blessed Name.
Romans 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

What name was Paul chosen to bear? Well, who was speaking in this verse?

Acts 9: 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:2- Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Acts 4:12- Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

4. Every Knee will bow.
a. Every knee will bow to YHWH.

Isaiah 45:23- I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return , That unto me every knee shall bow , every tongue shall swear.

b. Jesus is the one to whom everyone will bow the knee.

Philippians 2: 9-10- Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

s is the Alpha and Omega. ( Revelation 22:13)
As the Alpha and Omega, Jesus is the Almighty. ( Revelation 1:8)
As the Almighty, Jesus is YHWH. ( Isaiah 44:6)
YHWh is God's covenant name.

2. The Blessed Three.

2 Corinthians 13: 14-The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

Matthew 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

1 Peter 1: 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

Revelation 1: 4 Johnto the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come ; and from the seven Spirits which arebefore his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that lovedus, and washedus from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

3. The Blessed Name.
Romans 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

What name was Paul chosen to bear? Well, who was speaking in this verse?

Acts 9: 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:2- Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Acts 4:12- Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

4. Every Knee will bow.
a. Every knee will bow to YHWH.

Isaiah 45:23- I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return , That unto me every knee shall bow , every tongue shall swear.

b. Jesus is the one to whom everyone will bow the knee.

Philippians 2: 9-10- Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[LookingUp]

i dont beilieve that jesus is god i beileve that we have salvation through jesus christ our savour ,the structure to me is simple first comes the heavanly father ,then the son wich is jesus christ ,then the holy spirit what is evryones input on this topic .

I just posted on this in another thread. I'll paste it here.

John 5:23
For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

Not believing in the notion of the trinity doesn’t make you a non-Christian. What it seems you are doing in your mind is embracing the distinctions between the Father and the Son while disregarding that the New Testament authors often put Jesus in the role of Yahweh/God. For example, Yahweh alone created, Yahweh judges, and calling on the name of Yahweh saves. Yet the NT authors write that Jesus created, Jesus judges, and calling on the name of the Lord Jesus saves. Indeed, it is written that every knee will bow and swear allegiance to Yahweh (Isaiah 45:23), yet Paul writes that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Philippians 2:10-11).

Scripture reveals that there is no savior besides Yahweh (Isaiah 43:11; 1 Tim. 1:1), yet Jesus is our savior (John 4:42; 2 Tim. 1:10). Scripture reveals that Yahweh alone created all things (Isaiah 44:24), so Jesus cannot be a co-creator with Yahweh. And when Scripture says that Yahweh will not share His glory with another, I don’t think He was being disingenuous. Jesus is not “another”; Jesus is Yahweh [as man].

[Toner44]

Since it is a trinity you can also pray to all three (of one). They're not three separate hearts because Jesus said He is in Father and the Father is in Him and He who has seen the Son has seen the Father. God is omnipresent which means he can be everywhere at once...when you grasp that its easier to understand. (At least for me)

[Revmitchell]

note that jesus himself never claimed to be GOD,

Sure He did, that is why they hung Him:

Joh 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."

He made it clear to the Samaritan woman:

Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."
Joh 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."

[dan]

And the four living beings said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb. Revelation 5:14 (Lamb = Jesus)

In-light of the commandment to have no false Gods..we can draw the conclusion that the Father and the Son are one in the same.

Of course, I disagree. Read the Bible:

JN 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

JN 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

[David Taylor]

Ultimately, scripture tells us that it is YHWH that is eternal God; uncreated, unbeginning, unending; forever and ever in both directions.

The thing is, too many who have listed to views that reject the Trinity, get into the idea that the Father only is YHWH.

Yes the scriptures tell us that the Father is YHWH. However, the scriptures also tell us that Jesus is YHWH and the H.S. is YHWH.

We have one God, YHWH; but YHWH has chosen to manifest Himself to man via three individual distinctions; Father, Son, and H.S....and the Son particularly, took on a second nature; an additional nature of humanity when he robed Himself in it, and YHWH became flesh and dwelt among us.

[John 8:32]

note when jesus teachers us how to pray in luke ch 11 our father in heaven ,luke 21 jesus says i thank you father lord of heaven and earth ,when jesus died on the cross jesus said ,father why have you forsaken me ,note that jesus himself never claimed to be GOD,JESUS always called GOD father .

Au contraire...

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
(The reason he is italicised in the KJV is to show that it was not in the original.) Christ said that He was "I AM" and they knew what that meant, that is why they went backward and fell to the ground.

[LookingUp]

Ultimately, scripture tells us that it is YHWH that is eternal God; uncreated, unbeginning, unending; forever and ever in both directions.

The thing is, too many who have listed to views that reject the Trinity, get into the idea that the Father only is YHWH.

Yes the scriptures tell us that the Father is YHWH. However, the scriptures also tell us that Jesus is YHWH and the H.S. is YHWH.

We have one God, YHWH; but YHWH has chosen to manifest Himself to man via three individual distinctions; Father, Son, and H.S....and the Son particularly, took on a second nature; an additional nature of humanity when he robed Himself in it, and YHWH became flesh and dwelt among us.

Are you saying that had it not been for creation, God would not have "manifested" Himself via "three" individual distinctions? And if God was "manifesting" Himself as "three" before He created, why does He say that "all alone" I created and "by Myself" I created (Isa. 44:24)?

[David Taylor]

Are you saying that had it not been for creation, God would not have "manifested" Himself via "three" individual distinctions? And if God was "manifesting" Himself as "three" before He created, why does He say that "all alone" I created and "by Myself" I created (Isa. 44:24)?

Isaiah 44:24 is YHWH speaking:

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD(YHWH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD(YHWH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself"

There is only one YHWH; and YHWH is the eternal uncreated God.

Scripture tells us the Father is YHWH, Jesus is YHWH, and the H.S. is YHWH; therefore there is no conflict.

The Eternal uncreated God, YHWH has manifested Himself to mankind via the Father, Son, and H.S. That does not mean that YHWH is three YHWHs, with different wills, intents, thoughts, or objectives that run contrary to one another....YHWH is always perfect in harmony, will, intent, action, deed....regardless of how YHWH is being presented to humankind. The Father is in accord with the Spirit and the Son and vica-versa. It is not like polytheism, like the Greek pantheon for example; where there are multiple gods each having their own individual selfish desires. YHWH is three in subject-object distinction; yet one in substance and essance and unit of all the divine attributes that YHWH alone holds.

Since the NT tells us in multiple places that Jesus created all things, and likewise, the OT tells us that YHWH created all things; there is no conflict.