Is Jesus God

[Quickened]

I think pointing people to Hebrews is a good bet if they doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

He is the heir of all things. Through whom the world was created. He is the radiance of the glory of God. The exact imprint of his nature.
He upholds the universe by the word of his power! Really think about those things.

If you are still struggling then the author of Hebrews continues by using Old Testament quotations.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

The worshiping part here is the key thing. If he is not God then no one should worship because that would be a direct first commandment violation.

As we read along verse 8 is even more interesting.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."

This is just chapter one. Hebrews is a powerful exposition as to who Christ really is. The recipients of this letter were the Hebrews. It's a letter which is unique because it's not just written to Christians it is written also to those who are teetering on the edge of Knowledge without really having come to it. Building up and a massing head knowledge but never really accepting Christ for a multitude of reasons. The author painstakingly runs an intellectual gauntlet citing numerous OT sciptures explaining that Jesus isn't just some guy. He is greater then Moses who was held in high regard by the Hebrews of this time. He is a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. But that he is greater then that.

What man or prophet leads a sinless life? None. It's not possible. A deep study of the laws and expectations of God throughout the entirety of the bible show us that. That's why God came down to do the work for us. There was a plan in place before Eve even faced temptation.

[Bandit]

I'm not sure why it's necessary that God is a trinity just because all three are Yahweh. There are other ways to make sense of this.

Hello LookingUp,

I am not sure that I would refer to the "Trinity” as a way of making sense of God. I believe that what should be meant when one says “Trinity” is that they accept the bible’s claim that there is one and only one God, but this one God has been revealed through three “Persons” (for lack of a better word) who are somehow eternally one and eternally distinct. (At least this is what the bible seems to reveal about God.) I don’t believe “making sense of God”, as you say, is humanly possible. I believe the “Trinity” (for the lack of a better word) is a notion that has to be accepted more on faith, apart from any deep human understanding of it.

I believe you can spend a lot of time trying to “make sense of God”, and never really get there. God is infinite – a word which we often use but can never actually experience or know. So should we really be all that surprised if God – the Infinite God – defies human understanding? Remember God’s self-description, “I AM that I AM”? I think there may be an implied hint here to the fact that a full human comprehension of God is not possible.

Bandit

[David Taylor]

I'm not sure why it's necessary that God is a trinity just because all three are Yahweh. There are other ways to make sense of this.

Trinity is just another term that is used to denote YHWH.

The reason God is a trinity, is because there are no 4th or 5th or 6th members found with YHWH....YHWH is only Father, Son, and H.S....eternally past, eternall future...I AM that I AM.

So trinity is an acceptable way to reference YHWH; which shows both YHWHs uniqueness as eternal divine deity and creator God; as well as the distinctiveness within the Godhead that has been revealed to us by Scripture of the Father, Son, and H.S.

[LookingUp]

Thanks, David, for the explanation. I appreciate it.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Hello LookingUp,

I am not sure that I would refer to the "Trinity” as a way of making sense of God. I believe that what should be meant when one says “Trinity” is that they accept the bible’s claim that there is one and only one God, but this one God has been revealed through three “Persons” (for lack of a better word) who are somehow eternally one and eternally distinct. (At least this is what the bible seems to reveal about God.) I don’t believe “making sense of God”, as you say, is humanly possible. I believe the “Trinity” (for the lack of a better word) is a notion that has to be accepted more on faith, apart from any deep human understanding of it.

I believe you can spend a lot of time trying to “make sense of God”, and never really get there. God is infinite – a word which we often use but can never actually experience or know. So should we really be all that surprised if God – the Infinite God – defies human understanding? Remember God’s self-description, “I AM that I AM”? I think there may be an implied hint here to the fact that a full human comprehension of God is not possible.

Bandit

Lack of a better word, indeed. (bolded/underlined above) "Persons" is the chosen modern English rendering for hupostases (plural of hupostasis). Scripture clearly states God has/is ONE hupostasis.

And the logical follow-on question to your statements... Why maintain such an intricate and specific doctrine if the infinite God defies human understanding and is beyond our comprehension?

It's such an incredibly ridiculous double standard. Declare copious absolute detail, but also declare incomprehesibity of human understanding.

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I'm not sure why it's necessary that God is a trinity just because all three are Yahweh. There are other ways to make sense of this.

Now THAT's a concise and poignant post!!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Ultimately, scripture tells us that it is YHWH that is eternal God; uncreated, unbeginning, unending; forever and ever in both directions.

The thing is, too many who have listed to views that reject the Trinity, get into the idea that the Father only is YHWH.

Yes the scriptures tell us that the Father is YHWH. However, the scriptures also tell us that Jesus is YHWH and the H.S. is YHWH.

We have one God, YHWH; but YHWH has chosen to manifest Himself to man via three individual distinctions; Father, Son, and H.S....and the Son particularly, took on a second nature; an additional nature of humanity when he robed Himself in it, and YHWH became flesh and dwelt among us.

And there is another end-view that compromises none of that while representing a different understanding that includes the internal Logos becoming the external Son at the Divine Utterance. Neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit have to be eternally pre-existent as separate God-"persons" for them all to be YHWH.

And Trinitarians are not free to modify "persons" terminology to "distinctions" and remain orthodox in their expression. Trinity doctrine is nothing if not specific and unyielding. No having cake and eating cake, too.

My exegesis is at least as viable as any for Trinity. F/S/HS are all YHWH, but Trinity is not the only answer.

[David Taylor]

My exegesis is at least as viable as any for Trinity. F/S/HS are all YHWH, but Trinity is not the only answer.

Then whom besides those three (F, S, & HS) is YHWH pray-tell? If not any others, and we end up with just those three....

hhhmmm......

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Then whom besides those three (F, S, & HS) is YHWH pray-tell? If not any others, and we end up with just those three....

hhhmmm......

Hhhmmm...... back atcha. I've never indicated otherwise. F/S/HS are YHWH. They're not a Trinity. Trinity isn't just a descriptor for threeness of any kind when you decide for it to be; and then it's the absolute, specfic, and unmodifiable label for a doctrine when you'd you like it to be. Sorta like interposing God as three "distinctions" instead of three "persons". You play loose when you want to and it serves your purpose.

And just like in the other thread, you've avoided any semblance of even acknowledging my questions and challenges. Please answer whether God is three hupostases. Trinity (the actual specific doctrine) is untamperable and says God is three hupostases of one ousia. Exegete that from scripture.

Enough diversion. Answer the simple and direct question, please. Is God three hupostases as Trinity doctrine declares? And please answer from scripture.

[Bandit]

Lack of a better word, indeed. (bolded/underlined above) "Persons" is the chosen modern English rendering for hupostases (plural of hupostasis). Scripture clearly states God has/is ONE hupostasis.

So, are you are saying that two of the three that we refer to as the Father, Logos, and Holy Spirit are not God? If so, then please pick which two of these three is not God, and supply scriptural proof which supports any claim that they are not God. And if you believe all three are God, then in what sense are they distinct from one another, and why would the bible reveal such distinictions?

And the logical follow-on question to your statements... Why maintain such an intricate and specific doctrine if the infinite God defies human understanding and is beyond our comprehension?

What is so intricate and specific? The One God of the universe has revealed Himself as three somehow distinct yet somehow one persons, beings, modes,... (feel free to put your own vague term here). I do not see this view of God as being intricate and specific; I see it as simplisitic and vague.

God defies an intricate and specific understanding of Himself; yet you argue that our attempt to "organize" (for lack of a better term) what He has revealed of Himself is too "intricate and specific"! If that is your assessment, then I think you have absolutely no clue.

It's such an incredibly ridiculous double standard. Declare copious absolute detail, but also declare incomprehesibity of human understanding.

Excuse me, but where is all this "copious absolute detail"? If one reads the bible carefully (which I have to wonder if you have) then one should realize that Jesus is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and God is One, and yet these three are somehow distinct while also being the One True God. All this is not copious detail, for if it were, we would all understand it. (And I for one don't understand it, I just accept it as being what God has revealed of Himself.) This just happens to be part of what has been revealed of God by God. Now making sense of it is another thing all together. As I have said before, I am really drawn to where God says, "I AM that I AM." This to me kind of hints at the fact that the true nature of God is totally mind-blowing, and probably beyond total human understanding. (And you want to say I believe in "copious absolute detail", what a crock.)

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you saved your best argument for last.

[Protective Angel]

i dont beilieve that jesus is god i beileve that we have salvation through jesus christ our savour ,the structure to me is simple first comes the heavanly father ,then the son wich is jesus christ ,then the holy spirit what is evryones input on this topic .

Simply :

John 10
30 I and my Father are one.

[John 8:32]

Simply :

John 10
30 I and my Father are one.

One in what sense?

[David Taylor]

One in what sense?

One in the sense of both being YHWH, the single eternal uncreated Diety.

The entire context of John 10:17-39 is of Jesus claiming to be God, and the pharisees shouting blasphemy towards Him for doing it, and taking up stones against Jesus for blaspemously claiming to be God; and twice Jesus escaping out of their hands because they wanted to kill Him on the spot for claiming to be God.

References where Jesus claims to be GOD;
1) 10:11 Jesus claims to the good shepherd of the sheep, the only one by which the sheep can come to for life, something David said was a God-only attribute.
2) 10:17 Jesus claims to be able to raise Himself from the dead based on His own power, something God alone can do.
3) 10:18 Again, Jesus claiming to have the power to raise Himself from the dead.
4) 10:21 The Pharisees mention Jesus' power to heal the blind, again a God-only attribute.
5) 10:25 Jesus tells the Pharisees that His miracles prove He is God, something only God can do; yet they disbelieve Him therefore they disbelieve God.
6) 10:28 Jesus tells the Pharisees that He alone gives eternal life to those who believe in Him; the Pharisees knowing only God has the ability to grant eternal life. Jesus also tells them noone can pluck believers out of His hands.
7) 10:29 Jesus reminds the Pharisees that the Father is greater than all and noone one can pluck believers out of the Father's hands, showing they are both equally God.
8) 10:30 To be absolutely clear in regards to who has all power, and is greater than all Jesus said He and the Father are equal in power...summarizing the prior verses that noone can remove any believer they have given eternal life to from their hands.
9) 10:31 the Pharisees again take up rocks to stone Jesus for the blasphemy of claiming to be God.
10) 10:33 Jesus asks them why do they not believe Him and try to stone Him, when the miracles He has done prove themselves that He is God.
11) 10:35 Jesus tells them that because of the miracles and truth that He has done, they should be calling Him God, because the scripture cannot be broken.
12) 10:38 Jesus literally tells them that because He is God, He is in God and God is in Him; because of the miracles He is doing as God.
13) 10:29 Yet again, the try to capture Jesus for claiming to be God, but His imnipotent power allows Him to evade them and slip away.

[Toner44]

You should be....because only eternal, divine, deity can share equality with eternal, divine, diety.

If Jesus is not Eternal divine deity, then he as only a mortal, cannot share the divine attributes with God of eternality, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, perfection, sinlessness, righteousness, etc...

Jesus and the Father both possess all of these characteristics, because both Jesus and the Father are YHWH, the one true God; besides which there is no other.

Entity was a bad word choice. I meant existing in the same exact location. (omnipresent)

[Bandit]

...They [The Father and Jesus] obviously have a relationship with one another that isn't equal but if Jesus judges and is honored the same as the Father one might assume if they're treated the same they are the same. I'm not saying they're the same exact entity.

Entity was a bad word choice. I meant existing in the same exact location. (omnipresent)

But do you understand that the Logos, the Word of God, has always been equal to what we call "the Father" before (and during, and after) becoming Jesus?