Are you referring to John 1?Originally Posted by Bandit
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Are you referring to John 1?
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Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Posting Freak
That, and more.
Posting Freak
Hello Traveler,
And how do you reconcile this to what has been revealed elsewhere? (Like, I and the Father are One", in John 10:30.)
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Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
How come John 2 gets swept under the carpet. John is talking of two distinct personalities.
Keep in mind the people that he is writing this for. A pagan society with a god for every occasion. If Jesus is not held up as a God then what is he doing usurping all the other gods. He at least had to rank equal or higher to even be considered.
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Put the verse in its context and the meaning is no longer distorted is it.Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jesus himself makes a distinction between himself and his Father and then also makes it clear that he and his Father are in unity, they work as one, but no claim is made that they are the same deities. We are in Christ, Gods spirit dwells in us, or at least should. Does that make us God or does that make us Christ, No! We are still us.
Posting Freak
Hello Traveler,
It appears that you are a Jehovah Witness (or something similar) who claims to be a Christian, but I have to wonder. I suggest that you do not have a clear understanding of who Jesus is, and the real danger here is that at some point the Jesus you describe is no longer the Jesus the bible reveals. And Paul warns us that there will be those who will teach another “Jesus”.
For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! [2 Cor. 11:4]
So let’s take a look at a few passages and see what they say.
Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. [Deut. 6:4-5]
Kind of sounds like the God of Israel is One God, doesn’t it?
You shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. [Ex. 34:14]
And this One God is a jealous God who forbids the worship of any other gods.
The LORD is our Judge, the LORD is our Lawgiver, the LORD is our King; He will save us! [Isa. 33:22]
Look at all the offices/functions this One Jealous God fills.
I am the LORD, that is My name, and My glory I will not give to another… [Isa. 42:8]
And this One, Jealous, Multi-role God does not give His glory to another.
Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no Savior. [Isa. 43:10-11]
And if things aren’t yet clear enough, there never has been, or ever will be, another God. There is no other Savior.
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King. [Isa.43:15]
Again, the LORD is the Holy One, Creator, and King. (It kind of seems like God is trying to drive home a point.)
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts, “I am the First, and I am the Last, besides Me there is no God.” [Isa. 44:6]
Okay, again the same point. The LORD and the LORD alone is the First and the Last; there is no other God.
Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, He who formed you from the womb, “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone; Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.” [Isa. 44:24]
Again, the LORD alone is the Creator, and He did it all by Himself.
There is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other! I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. [Isa. 45:21-23]
Okay, pretty much the same point. There is only One God and Savior, and to Him and to Him alone every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.
You know, I could go on (or I should say God could go on – and He does) but by now we should pretty much understand that there is only One God, who alone is Judge, Savior, King, Creator, etc…
I have now set the stage for considering what the New Testament has to say – but that will have to wait for my next post (for I am running out of time for today); but given all that I have quoted from the Old Testament, how do you think your comments about there being two distinct deities fits? Specifically, if there is only One God, then how can you claim that Jesus is a distinct deity? (There is only one God - never been another god formed.) The only choice I see is that either Jesus is not a god of any kind, or He is God. If you want to claim that Jesus is a god (but not the God, then he must be a formed god, but the One God claims in Isaiah that there are no formed gods).
And you know all those unique claims God made in all those Old Testament quotes I gave above? What would you say about where the same claims are made by (or about) Jesus in the New Testament? It seems one would be hard-pressed to claim to believe in the Jesus of the New Testament without also accepting Him as the God of the Old Testament. Now, do you believe that these things are also claimed by (or about) Jesus, or do I need to point them out. (Like is Jesus ever said to be the Creator of the universe? Or does Jesus ever call Himself the First and the Last? Or does Jesus ever claim to have, or to share, the Father's glory?)
Bandit
Last edited by Bandit; May 17th 2012 at 03:58 PM.
Posting Freak
Just to muddy your waters a bit, if God is one and Christ and God are not two separate individuals in the Godhead, how does one read this...
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Another thought for you...
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Moses saw Someone, but he did not see the Father...
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
All of Israel heard Someone's voice...
Exo 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
They heard God speak (and it scared them spitless). Now again...
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Just as Jesus said...
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Notice that he is italicised? Means it was not in the original. These people knew who I Am was, they knew this is the One who spoke to Moses and Israel, that is why they went backward and fell to the ground.
God is one in perfect unity, but to say that God is one being is not correct.
Last edited by John 8:32; May 17th 2012 at 02:21 PM. Reason: bolding
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In reply to Bandit
There is little point quoting all the scriptures that describe God and then state that they apply to Jesus, Just who do you think the promised Messiah is?
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The Warning To Our Age
The original Apostles who established the early church left to us warnings of what would be happening in the last days and just as they predicted the events descried in these warnings are coming to pass. The most pressing being the one given below.
Now let me explain how this warning is coming to pass. The mechanics behind it and how it effects the saints ability to operate in the spirit.2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
This is being fulfilled in the current controversy sweeping the body of Christ concerning the Oneness verses Trinity doctrines or the presentation of Jesus is God himself doctrine. Yes Jesus is certainly a part of the Godhead and worthy to be praised but he is also a distinct and separate personality from God himself.
To demonstrate the distinction between the two personalities of Jesus and God please consider this list of verses;
Now this is just taken from the New Testament with three simple word searches only. I could easily double this list if I dig a bit deeper and I could double that again if I included the Old Testament as well. The evidence is over whelming. I do not see how anyone who has spent any time in the scriptures cannot see the separation of the persons of Jesus and God himself. It should be so obviously clear. Jesus is the one that redeemed us with his own Blood shed on the cross and he is our King and Lord and the head of the body of saints but God is still our God. Jesus always kept pointing us to God making it clear that the only way to get to God was through himself.Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Now it is obvious from those two lists of scripture that Jesus is our high priest before the throne of God making intercession for us. It is also obvious that Jesus is the mediator between men and God and it is only through Jesus that we can be reconciled to God. It is also obvious that Jesus is currently seated at the right hand of God. He is not on the throne of God or trying to show us that he is God. Only to note is that the throne of God on which God actually sits is associated with Power. When Jesus sits on the right hand of God he is sitting on the right hand of Power.Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
All this brings us back to the original warning
These deceived saints have Jesus, they have a form of Godliness and a form of biblical theology but they are denying the power of it which is God himself. They lift up Jesus as God claiming him to be God which of course leaves the God that sent him here in the first place where ? God actually is the power behind everything and he is being denied because he has been replaced by Jesus who is being presented as God when all the time Jesus made it quite clear that he is the Son of God and himself obedient to God his Father. Hence we now have a form of godliness, but the power has been denied just as the warnings given us by the original Apostles warned us would happen.2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
So the next question is, why is this so bad ? So long as you have Jesus you are saved right !
Wrong ! You need the real Jesus not the replacement or counterfeit Jesus if you want to be a partaker of salvation.
When I first came across the Jesus is God or oneness doctrine I did not give it much thought and just considered it another denominational doctrine of which there are plenty. It was only after I experienced the violence and ruthlessness associated with the promotion of it that I started to grasp that this was not a simple denominational doctrine but something that had a demonic influence associated with it that was pushing for its acceptance and inclusion no matter the cost to the saints themselves.
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which Jesus also affirmed so as to see the effects of this new Oneness doctrine.
Those are the first two commandments.Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1) You will have no other God but God himself. There is only one God and you will only worship him no matter what other deity you are introduced to.
2) You will not make any graven image or idol of any kind to any form of god or deity to worship or pay homage to.
Now this is what has happened !
God gave to the children of Adam an exceedingly precious and eternal gift in the form of Jesus who was to be our Messiah or Christ that would open the way for us in our fallen state to come to Himself and be reconciled to Himself. What has happened is that we have taken that irreplaceable gift and fashioned Christ into an Idol and then used that Idol as a replacement for God himself. We have taken Gods gift to us and replaced Him with it. Could a more diabolical scheme hatched in the depths of hell be found to bring about the fall of the church ?
What has happened is that the church itself, because of the adoption of this oneness (Jesus is God) doctrine, has been beguiled into falling into the sin of idolatry and as a result has been separated from the protection and power that comes from God and his throne of grace. The now powerless church has become the plaything of demons with the result that just all the sins of the world is now manifested in it and adopted by it and upheld as acceptable by it. Is it any wonder that dominion theology has taken root or that Mammon is now equated with blessings or that sexual perversions of all types are not only tolerated but in some cases openly promoted. To the world the church has no salt, it has become a joke of ridicule.
In fact what we now have is the great falling away.
The fruits of this Jesus is God doctrine should be apparent to all but the professing saints caught up in this are already so blinded that they can no longer discern what is taking place anymore. They are convinced that if they do not lift Jesus up into the position of his Father God so that he is his Father God they are denying him and therefore condemning their own souls. All the while all they are doing is paving the way for the Son of Perdition to make his grand appearance and of course they will also be the ones following him when he does present himself because they will believe that this is simply another manifestation of the return of God in the flesh. The number of deceived saints falling for this will be in the millions.2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Posting Freak
It was the last days in the first century (Heb. 1:2).
Jesus made himself out to be equal with God. This point is driven home when Paul makes the astounding claim that calling on the name of Jesus is analogous to calling on the name of the LORD. How do you, personally, go about reconciling this when you know that God alone is savior and there is no other? How do you reconcile the LORD's declaration that He does not share His glory with another, yet He shares it with Jesus? Isn't Jesus "another" in your view? If so, how do you reconcile that? Did the LORD tell a fib? Did He change His mind? We are not blind; we see the distinctions between Father and son in Scripture. You act as if you're revealing something to us we've never seen before, and then have the nerve to go about saying that we fall into the category of those "falling away" and denying God. You are the one who has not satisfactorily provided a way to reconcile how the NT writers can equate Jesus with God even to the extent that "God-only" phrases are actually applied to Jesus. If Jesus doesn't somehow share the identity of God, that's blasphemy! And apparently, you're okay with that.
Posting Freak
Do you think it is just I who apply these [Old Testament claims] to Jesus? Or does Jesus and His Apostles do it? When one reads the Old Testament, God claims certain unique things about Himself; when one reads the New Testament, these same unique things are ascribed to Jesus.
I feel that I am going to have to write a 2nd, follow-up post to show what the New Testament says about Jesus. You know, no one has ever claimed that understanding what God reveals of Himself can be easily understood (if understood much at all) by the limited, finite, human intellect. But though I do not understand Him fully, or how all the pieces of His Self-revelation fit together, I do see those individual pieces of Self-revelation, and I see them as revealing that there is one and only one God, and that Jesus is this one and only one God, and that He is also somehow distinct from both what we call the Father and the Spirit, who also are that one and only one God.
I think the difference between you and me is that I am willing to accept that God's Self-revelation may not make sense in this physical universe (for isn't God above and beyond the physical universe). Yet you seem to not want to accept what He has revealed of Himself simply because it doesn't make sense to you from within the logic of this physical universe. You know, I'm more than willing to take God on faith here concerning Himself; I have no basis whatsoever to reject what He reveals (in spite of my inability to comprehend all that He reveals of Himself).
As it turns out, the promised Messiah is none other than God Himself! (At least that is what He seems to be revealing.) Now, unless I am misunderstanding you, then I think you are rejecting the notion that Jesus is also the One True God (and also somehow simultaneously distinct from the Father). Am I wrong in assuming that you are saying that the Messiah as revealed in Jesus is not also God Most High?
New and Improved
These denials of the deity of Jesus are all over the board right now. I know of at least three or four that have been started in the last month or so. In each case, the the clear Scriptural answers to the challenges are endlessly repeated and rejected. Most of these guys are either JW's or like-minded, and simply ignore the numerous passages that plainly declare the deity of Jesus. They refuse to accept that Jesus is the Logos, robed in humanity, as clearly declared in Scripture--both God and man.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
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To say that Jesus is not his Father does not denie the divinity of Christ.
To claim that those who point out what is so blatantly obvious in the scriptures, are JW's is not a nice thing to do. It's basically saying those that will not subscribe to error have to belong to a cult denomination so therefore the error is protected and the people will not oppose for fer of the stigma of being associated with a cult denomination.
The Bible states categorically that Jesus sits at the right hand of God, not on the throne of God
Do you denie this ?
The Bible states categorically that Jesus is the mediator between men and God. If God was dealing with us directly there would be no need for a mediator.
Do you denie this ?
The Bible states categorically that Jesus is our high priest before the throne of God making intercession for us.
Do you denie this ?
Now if you cannot denie these statements of who Jesus is then how do you manage to twist the scriptures in such contortions that you make Christ out to be God his Father himself.
Christ means the anointed one
God is the one that does the anointing, he does not anoint himself he anoints others so as to enable them to fill positions or offices at his own discretion.G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.
Posting Freak
Traveler, if you claim this is all that the bible says of Jesus - that He is only always at God's right hand but never on the throne Himself - then "yes," I reject this false claim. In Rev. 3:21 it says,
He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
and in Rev. 22 it describes the throne of God as being the throne of God and of the Lamb. So you stand exposed in your Jehovah Witness' error.
Your attempt to ascribe to Jesus a lower and lesser position is an affront to His true nature. There is but one God; no 2nd rate or lower god was formed after Him. You would understand that if you read the Old Testament (or my previous quotations from the Old Testament). So which part of the following do you not understand?
Understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no Savior. [Isa. 43:10-11]
And if things aren’t yet clear enough, there never has been, or ever will be, another God. There is no other Savior.
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of Hosts, “I am the First, and I am the Last, besides Me there is no God.” [Isa. 44:6]
Okay, again the same point. The LORD and the LORD alone is the First and the Last; there is no other God.
So, how then can you persist in claiming that Jesus is a lesser God? The bible does not allow room for such a claim.
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