I dont get it..Does believing Jesus is Gods SON make you a non-Christian?

[allyc33]

I consider myself a Christian in every way. I believe Jesus is our Savior.. I believe our Father is Almighty GOD... I have a strong love for BOTH and appreciate the love they have shown us all... But I do not believe Jesus equal to God..

I posted here in Bible Chat, but I seriously dont even know where to post. Do some feel that if I dont believe in the Trinity I am possibly considered by some, a non-Christian?

[John 8:32]

I consider myself a Christian in every way. I believe Jesus is our Savior.. I believe our Father is Almighty GOD... I have a strong love for BOTH and appreciate the love they have shown us all... But I do not believe Jesus equal to God..

I posted here in Bible Chat, but I seriously dont even know where to post. Do some feel that if I dont believe in the Trinity I am possibly considered by some, a non-Christian?

So do you really care about what the "some" think?

[allyc33]

Of course I care ...to some degree...
There are many questions, discussions and debates regarding personal feelings, faiths and beliefs ... I would like to have some insight as to what people feel about this... It is hard to know where to post with my thoughts.. I did not come here to offend anyone but to share and find out if others have any of the same feelings or thoughts that I have..
Ally

[TrustGzus]

Ally, what do you mean by the statement that you don't believe that Jesus is equal to God? I can interpret that comment a couple different ways.

[Free Indeed]

But I do not believe Jesus equal to God.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

- Phillipians 2:5-6

Jesus is Immanuel, God with us, the Word made flesh.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I consider myself a Christian in every way. I believe Jesus is our Savior.. I believe our Father is Almighty GOD... I have a strong love for BOTH and appreciate the love they have shown us all... But I do not believe Jesus equal to God..

I posted here in Bible Chat, but I seriously dont even know where to post. Do some feel that if I dont believe in the Trinity I am possibly considered by some, a non-Christian?

If you don't see Jesus as God, then yes, I'd be one who would say you are not a true Christian {maybe not yet, maybe not, depending on how you will receive scriptures}.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

John 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


For His glory...

[allyc33]

I believe that Jesus was Gods Son.. His first creation.. His master worker... His only Begotten Son. The one who works side by side with his Father... The perfect man who died for us .. sent by his Father to show a perfect man can be loyal til death to his Father and our Grand Creator.. It is a love and bond that we can only imagine.. similar to what we feel for our children, only stronger as to not compare myself or anyone with them. When I say 'not equal to' I mean that our Father deserves to be in a class of His own.. If it wasnt for Him.. Jesus would not exist.. Jesus said himself "The Father is Greater than I.. John 14:28

It is the logic in me.. (not to imply anything other than I cant ignore the logic) I am responding quickly with my heart.. not with scriptures at the moment. There are many that I find self explanatory and pretty clear.. but as with many other scriptures will always be debated..

[Redeemed by Grace]

I believe that Jesus was Gods Son.. His first creation.. His master worker... His only Begotten Son. The one who works side by side with his Father... The perfect man who died for us .. sent by his Father to show a perfect man can be loyal til death to his Father and our Grand Creator.. It is a love and bond that we can only imagine.. similar to what we feel for our children, only stronger as to not compare myself or anyone with them. When I say 'not equal to' I mean that our Father deserves to be in a class of His own.. If it wasnt for Him.. Jesus would not exist.. Jesus said himself "The Father is Greater than I.. John 14:28

It is the logic in me.. (not to imply anything other than I cant ignore the logic) I am responding quickly with my heart.. not with scriptures at the moment. There are many that I find self explanatory and pretty clear.. but as with many other scriptures will always be debated..

But see Ally, you are lacking a full understanding in who Jesus really is.... Jesus was not created, for He was before the foundation of the world. Who walked in the garden in the cool of the day? Who did Isaiah see on the throne in Chapter 6? Jesus

[Colight]

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us....

Christ and the father are one...

They have different functions towards man, but they are equal in power and attributes.

[jayne]

Ally - Jesus was not created by God. That is an unBiblical concept. Jesus is the Creator.

Colossians 1:14-17 is just one of many examples.

"....In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus') blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Also, here's this.

Acts 20:28 – “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood”

[markedward]

I believe that Jesus was Gods Son..

So do all Christians.

His first creation..

I'm assuming this is based on either Colossians 1 (Jesus is the 'firstborn over all creation') or Revelation 3 (Jesus is the 'beginning of the creation of God'). Neither of these is talking about Jesus the first creation made by God. The passage from Colossians 1 is talking about Jesus' primacy over all creation; the term 'firstborn' is a legal term referring to one's primacy in regards to one's inheritance. One can be 'firstborn' without being literally born or created first. The passage from Revelation 3 is talking about Jesus being the starting point for God's creation... his new creation. Through Jesus, the new creation has come into being, he is its beginning. For Jesus to be called the 'beginning' of something in no way means that he himself was created (otherwise you would need to conclude the same for God, since God calls himself the 'beginning' elsewhere in the Revelation).

His master worker...

So do all Christians.

His only Begotten Son.

All Christians believe this, though, unlikely trinitarians, I disagree with the claim that Jesus was 'eternally begotten'. If Christians are truly being sola scriptura, they would recognize that Jesus being 'begotten' is only ever stated in regards to his conception/birth to Mary, or to his baptism, or to his death/resurrection/ascension. But the fact that the latter two instances (baptism, and death/resurrection/ascension) are described as God 'begetting' Jesus shows that for Jesus to be 'begotten' by God in an absolutely unique sense does not mean that Jesus was God's first creation.

The one who works side by side with his Father...

All Christians believe this, but I have to raise a point to counter your meaning here. How are you meaning the word 'work'? Scripture states absolutely explicitly that God alone created all things, that there was no one with him who helped him. To say that God created Jesus, and then Jesus created alongside God (for example, this is what the Jehovah's Witnesses say), is simply un-Biblical. If Jesus was, in any way, involved with the act of creating, then he is creator. God alone is creator, hence, Jesus must be included in the identity of 'God'.

The perfect man who died for us ..

All Christians believe this.

sent by his Father to show a perfect man can be loyal til death to his Father and our Grand Creator..

All Christians believe this. I think I might adjust your language here, though, as it implies that Jesus came and died solely to act as an example of model behavior, as opposed to dying to bring atonement for sins and reconciliation to God.

[RollTide21]

If you trust Christ as your Savior, believing that, through His Death and Resurrection, you have forgiveness of Sin and Eternal Life, then you are a true Christian.

[allyc33]

There are many scriptures that we can go back and forth with...All should be important, all should be considered as they are ALL Gods words.. all should be considered and have meaning for us.. non should be any more or less then another..

Jesus is and always will be our King and redeemer... He deserves to be honored and glorified for the sacrifices and the love he has shown.. He deserves to be on a throne.. If it wasnt for him we would all be floundering around like fish out of water.. our future would be hopeless.. Do I love Jesus?.. Yes, with ALL my heart.
With that said I will try to explain why I have a problem believing that our king Christ Jesus is actually, literally .. GOD himself.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one,"

Deuteronomy 32:39 there is no God besides ME.

Matthew 12:18 - "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Does GOD delight in himself? Does he need to put his spirit onto Himself?

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD formed me (or possessed me) from the beginning, before he created anything else"

GOD was not formed from anything .. and can not be posssessed by another..

1 Corinthians 8:6; 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:5 One LORD one faith, one baptism

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Why or How would GOD be our God and our mediator?

Isaiah 42:8 - I am YHWH, that is my name; and my glory I will not give to another.

If Jesus is Yeshuah then who is YHWH. Why is that name even a thought or made known to us? Why is this name found inscribed on ancient stones..?

Who did the Jews (pre-Christians) call out to before Jesus. Who was their God?

I am not trying to argue.. I am not one to cause commotion... or conflict. I just know what I see.. and read. I love Jesus .. He deserves the glory.. I am not trying to downplay his importance..
I appreciate with all my heart his sacrifice. He gave back to us what Adam lost...( the second Adam ) He deserves to be worshipped... but If there is a God greater than he..and He is not getting the acknowledgement He deserves.? That is a scary thought to me. Now that I care about.

There is too much clarity in so many scriptures, for me not to even consider these two being separate beings.. a Father AND a Son.

Thanks for listening and reading.. Sorry it has taken me so long to post... I have to read all of your replies.. thank you
Allyson

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Ally


Your OP Declares:

I consider myself a Christian in every way. I believe Jesus is our Savior.. I believe our Father is Almighty GOD... I have a strong love for BOTH and appreciate the love they have shown us all... But I do not believe Jesus equal to God..

I posted here in Bible Chat, but I seriously dont even know where to post. Do some feel that if I dont believe in the Trinity I am possibly considered by some, a non-Christian?

Here you are declaring that Jesus is not God, and many thus far have shown scripture stating that Jesus indeed is God.

Why Thomas, who doubted Jesus' resurrection, when shown by Jesus that He indeed is alive declares: John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"


Jesus is God!!!

So either you deny that Jesus is God in the flesh and thus believe another Gospel, or you don't understand that Jesus being the Son of God is also God. Why even His name is translated "God with us".

There are many scriptures that we can go back and forth with...All should be important, all should be considered as they are ALL Gods words.. all should be considered and have meaning for us.. non should be any more or less then another..

Jesus is and always will be our King and redeemer... He deserves to be honored and glorified for the sacrifices and the love he has shown.. He deserves to be on a throne.. If it wasnt for him we would all be floundering around like fish out of water.. our future would be hopeless.. Do I love Jesus?.. Yes, with ALL my heart.
With that said I will try to explain why I have a problem believing that our king Christ Jesus is actually, literally .. GOD himself.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one,"

Deuteronomy 32:39 there is no God besides ME.

Matthew 12:18 - "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Does GOD delight in himself? Does he need to put his spirit onto Himself?

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD formed me (or possessed me) from the beginning, before he created anything else"

GOD was not formed from anything .. and can not be posssessed by another..

1 Corinthians 8:6; 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:5 One LORD one faith, one baptism

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Why or How would GOD be our God and our mediator?

Isaiah 42:8 - I am YHWH, that is my name; and my glory I will not give to another.

If Jesus is Yeshuah then who is YHWH. Why is that name even a thought or made known to us? Why is this name found inscribed on ancient stones..?

Who did the Jews (pre-Christians) call out to before Jesus. Who was their God?

I am not trying to argue.. I am not one to cause commotion... or conflict. I just know what I see.. and read. I love Jesus .. He deserves the glory.. I am not trying to downplay his importance..
I appreciate with all my heart his sacrifice. He gave back to us what Adam lost...( the second Adam ) He deserves to be worshipped... but If there is a God greater than he..and He is not getting the acknowledgement He deserves.? That is a scary thought to me. Now that I care about.

There is too much clarity in so many scriptures, for me not to even consider these two being separate beings.. a Father AND a Son.

Thanks for listening and reading.. Sorry it has taken me so long to post... I have to read all of your replies.. thank you
Allyson

True trinitiarian doctrine declares that

1. God is three Persons
2. Each Person is fully God.
3. There is one God.

God the Father, God The Son, God the Holy Spirit are all God of themselves, and all are One. So if you don't see Jesus is God, and not as a form of God, nor created to be as God... if you say the later than the former, then by scriptures.... you have a false understanding of the Gospel of Christ. However if this now starts to make sense, and you see the error of your doctrines, now could be the day of your salvation based on the truth.... Not only did Jesus die for your sins, but as the Son of God; Son of Man, He is God.

[markedward]

There are many scriptures that we can go back and forth with...All should be important, all should be considered as they are ALL Gods words.. all should be considered and have meaning for us.. non should be any more or less then another..

I completely agree.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one,"

Deuteronomy 32:39 there is no God besides ME.

Matthew 12:18 - "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Does GOD delight in himself? Does he need to put his spirit onto Himself?

God delights in his son, Jesus, in whom the fullness of God dwells.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

The text here originally said 'the only Son, who is at the Father's side'... the word 'son' was changed to 'god' in later copies.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

All they state is that the man Jesus acted and spoke in accordance with God his Father. None of these contradict the concept that Jesus is Yahweh as man. The second one, John 17.3, however, is actually a giant step in favor of the concept that Jesus is Yahweh as man. Yahweh alone is to be acknowledged and worshiped as God in order to receive eternal life, yet here Jesus is included in that acknowledgement and worship. No matter how we approach this issue, we must account for the inclusion of Jesus in knowledge/worship of God.

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD formed me (or possessed me) from the beginning, before he created anything else"

GOD was not formed from anything .. and can not be posssessed by another..

Proverbs 8 is not relevant to this discussion. It is talking about God's wisdom (which in the Hebrew text is feminine) as a personification... it's not talking about Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:6; 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

This is Paul's affirmation of the Shema, which is found in Deuteronomy 6.4.

Hebrew: Yahweh is God, Yahweh is one.
Greek: The Lord is God, the Lord is one.
Paul: There is one God (the Father), and one Lord (Jesus the Christ).

In Paul's affirmation of the Shema, he includes Jesus in the identity of the one Lord / the one Yahweh. Again, no matter how we approach this, we must account for Paul's inclusion of Jesus within the monotheistic creed of Israel.

Ephesians 4:5 One LORD one faith, one baptism

The 'lord' here is Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Why or How would GOD be our God and our mediator?

What this affirms is that Jesus is the man who is the mediator between God and man. This is an emphasis on Jesus' position of intercession, as our high priest. It is a powerful affirmation of Jesus' humanity, but it is not a denial or rejection of Jesus being Yahweh as man.

Isaiah 42:8 - I am YHWH, that is my name; and my glory I will not give to another.

Don't stop short. Let's look at all of the relevant passages in this section of Isaiah.

Isaiah 40: 'Have you not known? Have you not heard? Yahweh is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth.'

Isaiah 41: 'Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, the first and with the last: I am he.'

Isaiah 42: 'I am Yahweh, that is my name. My glory I give to no other.'

Isaiah 43: 'I, I am Yahweh, and besides me there is no savior.'

Isaiah 44: 'Thus says Yahweh, the King and Redeemer of Israel, Yahweh of Hosts, "I am the first and I am the last, besides me there is no god. ... Is there a god besides me? There is no rock, I know not any." ... Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb, "I am Yahweh, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself."'

Isaiah 45: ​​​​​​​'I am Yahweh, and there is no other, besides me there is no God ... I am Yahweh, and there is no other ... I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hand that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host ... I am Yahweh, and there is no other ... There is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me ... Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Isaiah 46: 'I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done.'

Isaiah 48: 'Hear this, house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came from the waters of Judah, who swear by the name of Yahweh and confess the God of Israel ... Listen to me, Jacob, and Israel, whom I called: I am he, I am the first and I am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens. When I call to them, they stand forth together.'

And so on.

Isaiah 40-55 contains the most emphatic series of proclamations regarding the absolute uniqueness of Yahweh. All of the statements are written in Isaiah 40-55 to back up the claim that Yahweh is the one true God necessarily must be read as evidence in favor of that. If any of those statements are at all applicable to someone who is not Yahweh, then these passages fail in that purpose. And yet, we find that several of the 'Yahweh alone is this' statements are applied directly to Jesus.

Yahweh alone created all things (Isaiah 40,44,45,48), from heaven to earth and everything within. But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that act of creation (e.g. 1 Corinthians 8.6, Colossians 1.16).

Yahweh alone is the first and the last, the beginning and the end (41,44,46,48), and this is affirmed in the New Testament (Revelation 1.8). But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that emphatic declaration of God's uniqueness (Revelation 1.17; 2.8; 21.6; 22.13).

Yahweh alone receives the glory of all heaven and earth, he shares his glory with no one (Isaiah 42). But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that glory (Revelation 5.12-14).

Yahweh alone has the Name above all names, and only to Yahweh will every knee bow and every tongue confess allegiance (Isaiah 42,45,48). But the New Testament writers very explicitly include Jesus within that Name, proclaiming that every knee shall bow to Jesus, and every tongue shall confess allegiance to Jesus (Philippians 2.9-11).

When we find the New Testament writers applying 'Yahweh alone is this' statements from Isaiah to Jesus, that is saying something.

Jesus is included within the identity of Yahweh. Jesus is Yahweh as man.