I dont get it..Does believing Jesus is Gods SON make you a non-Christian?

[Revmitchell]

John 5:23

Not believing in the notion of the trinity doesn’t make you a non-Christian.

That is exactly what it does. The Trinity is a core doctrine.

[LookingUp]

That is exactly what it does. The Trinity is a core doctrine.

Nonsense. The trinity is a man made construct designed to make sense of the distinctions and similarities between the Father and the Son. One can embrace the distinctions and accept that Jesus is Yahweh/God without believing that God is made up of three persons.

[Revmitchell]

Nonsense. The trinity is a man made construct designed to make sense of the distinctions and similarities between the Father and the Son. One can embrace the distinctions and accept that Jesus is Yahweh/God without believing that God is made up of three persons.

No that leads to modalism which is heresy. It is what folks like T. D. Jakes holds to.

[LookingUp]

No that leads to modalism which is heresy. It is what folks like T. D. Jakes holds to.

Isn't the trinity the belief that God is three persons - Father, Son, Spirit? Or are you saying that "embracing the distinctions while believing that Jesus is Yahweh/God" is heresy?

[Revmitchell]

Isn't the trinity the belief that God is three persons - Father, Son, Spirit? Or are you saying that "embracing the distinctions while believing that Jesus is Yahweh/God" is heresy?

I don't know how else to say it any clearer than what I already have.

[LookingUp]

I don't know how else to say it any clearer than what I already have.

Oh brother...didn't mean to bother you. So glad to hear what you've said is clear to you. That's the important thing.

[Revmitchell]

Oh brother...didn't mean to bother you. So glad to hear what you've said is clear to you. That's the important thing.

I didn't say you bothered me. Try this

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

[markedward]

No that leads to modalism which is heresy.

No it doesn't. Please take a moment to realize that not every perspective happens to fit in a premade box like 'trinity' or 'modalism' or the like.

[John 8:32]

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

Chapter and verse?

[Revmitchell]

Chapter and verse?

Sure:

Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7. Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16. Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

[allyc33]

Hello everyone.. : )

I apologize for not responding sooner. I am not as quick with the scriptures as some and do not want to be rash in my response. (I am also not able to spend as much time as I would like focusing on these important issues).. It is hard to respond to all of your replies ..but I did find one reply/post very interesting.. I will start here.

Ally,

Some questions for you . . .

If Jesus is not God, then isn't a brutal fact that those who believe he is God are committing idolatry? If Jesus is God, and someone says he is not, then isn't denying the deity of one who is deity blasphemous in the other direction?

Either way, the error is quite serious, and seems it might cost one his/her soul, don't you think?

First ... let me just say, If Jesus IS God and I am questioning his level of headship, then I am wrong ... and I will have to answer to Them.

If he is the Son of God, (meaning God is his Father and Superior)... I cant see how giving him the praise he deserves as our King and Savior would be considered idol worship because we are told to glorify him.. Jesus Christ is our King and Savior, one to be glorified, loved and honored by all.

And if Jesus said that he "praised his Father" - (Matthew 11:25) "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children....

By giving his Father praise... we would still be doing just as Jesus did. I do not see how this would be a sin or considered blasphemy towards Jesus.. Because we would still be giving Jesus the praise.

Now..If they were separate... and Yahweh and Jesus (Yeshua) are not one in the same...By choosing to worship Jesus as "God the Father", and not worship GOD himself (Yahweh) as the Father.. we would not be acknowledging, giving glory or worshipping the only GOD...

We wouldnt even know Him as an individual a separate Supreme Being.. If He was worshipped as one of three.. and was never shown exclusive devotion as our only GOD and Father He would have never received exclusive praise and honor for the gift of life He gave us when He created us.

I feel as though this would be horrible and very serious because now we have completely disregarded Almighty GOD Himself.

With that being said, I think we all can agree on one thing... The Trinity has been viciously debated for years. This fact leads me to believe there is considerable reason for all the fighting and obviously more to it.. There are many scriptures suggesting, even clearly stating a separation of the Son and the Father .. I would never be so arrogant as to think my beliefs and mine alone were always correct. People have been murdered over trying to prove the other wrong when it comes to their religious beliefs.. THIS is not Christian.

There are and will continue to be many who disagree with the Trinity doctrine, past, present and future. This can not mean they are not God fearing and loving Christians..

I am not here to try and change the way anyone thinks or feels or interprets. I have questions.. and they are very litgitimate questions.. I dont think anyone can say that many scriptures are not without question.. If there was meant to be no question...there should be no reason to have scriptures such as:

1 Corinthians 11:3 - "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

Matthew 24:36 “[I]Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.[/I]

These are two more additional scriptures among the many others I posted previously.

I am not the judge and jury and neither are any of us. I suggest ONE you suggest THREE, I am sure we all find out soon enough.

I do think this was a real interesting question and appreciate you asking my thoughts and opinion..so thank you... I wonder if I had asked it, would I have just been bombarded with scriptures and not given a personal or heartfelt answer...

I will continue to post and ask questions, ask others opinions, and answer why I feel the way I do the best that I can.. Thanks : )

Allyson

P.S. I do not know what the statement made by someone .."overwhelming Jehovah influence" means.. I dont feel it is fair to assume that questions that arise in my (or anyone elses) head should have anything to do with anyone elses influence. Questioning the questionable is normal.. and if its not, it should be.

[John 8:32]

Sure:

Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7. Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16. Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

And not asingle verse you quoted except 1 John 5:7 teach a trinity. Now what you need to do is investigate 1 John 5:7 and find out if it was in the originals.

[Revmitchell]

And not asingle[sic] verse you quoted except 1 John 5:7 teach a trinity. Now what you need to do is investigate 1 John 5:7 and find out if it was in the originals.

Of course they do. They all teach one of the persons of the trinity.

[markedward]

What they do is talk about Yahweh, the Father, Jesus, and the holy spirit. They don't teach that God is 'three' or that he is multiple 'persons'. (The one and only exception is 1 John 5.7, which says that 'these three are one', but it never calls them multiple 'persons', and even then, this verse is an outright fabrication added into the original epistle.)

[allyc33]

[QUOTE=markedward;2840444]What they do is talk about Yahweh, the Father, Jesus, and the holy spirit. They don't teach that God is 'three' or that he is multiple 'persons'. (The one and only exception is 1 John 5.7, which says that 'these three are one', but it never calls them multiple 'persons', and even then, this verse is an outright fabrication added into the original epistle.)[/QUOTE
The scripture John 5:7 says: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

But see also:
Genesis 2:24 They will become one flesh

Mark 10:8 says: and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. (does this mean they were one person?)

Judges 20:11 "So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, united together as one man." (Does this mean they all became ONE man)

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.



Allyson