Moving thread to Aeropagus, which is the proper forum for debating doctrine such as the deity of Jesus.
New and Improved
Moving thread to Aeropagus, which is the proper forum for debating doctrine such as the deity of Jesus.
Last edited by Sojourner55; Apr 26th 2012 at 05:41 PM.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
Coffee Break
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Originally Posted by allyc33
Then you are not a child of God.
New and Improved
You sound like a Jehovah's Witness. If Jesus is not God, explain this:
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:27-28) I don't see Jesus correcting Thomas for calling Him God, do you?
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5)
How could Jesus have shared God's Glory before He was even born, if He were not God?
And Jesus certainly could not have stated His deity any plainer than this:
Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? (John 14:9)
Jesus is both fully God and fully man, my friend, and there are dozens of passages of Scripture that testify to that truth. Jesus was briefly limited by His human incarnation, prior to His resurrection, as per the plan of God. Yet, He existed as God in heaven before His birth, and He still does now. The New World Translation is a twisted version of the Bible tailored to accommodate and facilitate the heretical denial of Jesus' deity, but that does not change the truth of God's Word.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
Posting Freak
Same scripture I used in the other thread...
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Verse 14 clearly shows that the Word became the person we call Jesus Christ. Now back up to Vs 1 and we see that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God. He is not a creation. In fact with a (very) little study, you can determine that the one in the OT called LORD (I like to use the name Eternal here, see Strong's H3068) was the one who became Jesus Christ. Same one who knelt down in the Garden and fashioned man from clay (the dust of the ground).
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
In the KJV based on the textus receptus, he is in italics. It was not in the manuscripts that verse was translated from. Christ said that He was I Am. Same I Am that spoke with Moses and delivered Israel from Egypt. This is why the reaction "they went backward, and fell to the ground".
Christ was not a created being, Christ was the creator. He and the Father have always been and always will be.
These are just a few scriptures, drop your preconceived ideas and read what the Word says. You will find that Christ has been, is now and always will be God.
Citizen
**
I appreciate all the replies so thank you.. I work a lot so it hard to reply quickly sometimes. As I said before, I did not know where the appropriate forum to post would be. Thank you for the direction.
I do however still disagree with the suggestion that anyone who does not believe in the Trinity is not Christian.
The definition of a Christian is:
1. A believer in Jesus Christ as our Savior:
Yes,.. Jesus is our Savior. He sacrificed his perfect life so we could have back what Adam took from us.
2. Belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah.
Yes,.. Jesus is the precious Son of God and the Messiah. Anointed by God and is our King.
3. One who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Yes,...Jesus taught many things.. to love, be kind, have patience, be humble not to be judgemental...and much more... but the most important thing he taught, and his reason for coming to earth was to declare his Father name (John 17:26) and His Kingdom which he told us to pray for. ("The Lords Prayer" - Matthew 6:9) I accept and believe his teachings.
4. Kind and unselfish: showing qualities such as kindness, helpfulness, and concern for others.
Yes,.. I do my best everyday to show acts of kindness, patience and act unselfishly. This is something all of us must strive for.
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.. I look forward to reading and posting again.
Allyson
Posting Freak
Perhaps this will help in defining a Christian...I appreciate all the replies so thank you.. I work a lot so it hard to reply quickly sometimes. As I said before, I did not know where the appropriate forum to post would be. Thank you for the direction.
I do however still disagree with the suggestion that anyone who does not believe in the Trinity is not Christian.
The definition of a Christian is:
1. A believer in Jesus Christ as our Savior:
Yes,.. Jesus is our Savior. He sacrificed his perfect life so we could have back what Adam took from us.
2. Belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah.
Yes,.. Jesus is the precious Son of God and the Messiah. Anointed by God and is our King.
3. One who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Yes,...Jesus taught many things.. to love, be kind, have patience, be humble not to be judgemental...and much more... but the most important thing he taught, and his reason for coming to earth was to declare his Father name (John 17:26) and His Kingdom which he told us to pray for. ("The Lords Prayer" - Matthew 6:9) I accept and believe his teachings.
4. Kind and unselfish: showing qualities such as kindness, helpfulness, and concern for others.
Yes,.. I do my best everyday to show acts of kindness, patience and act unselfishly. This is something all of us must strive for.
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.. I look forward to reading and posting again.
Allyson
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Posting Freak
Ally,
Some questions for you . . .
If Jesus is not God, then isn't a brutal fact that those who believe he is God are committing idolatry? If Jesus is God, and someone says he is not, then isn't denying the deity of one who is deity blasphemous in the other direction?
Either way, the error is quite serious, and seems it might cost one his/her soul, don't you think?
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown
Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson
"Christ is all" Col 3:11
This is a great statement, when applied to the true, real Jesus Christ.
Many figures can claim to be Jesus Christ.
But there is only one true Jesus Christ.
Any false jesus christ who is not the true Jesus Christ, did not die, did not resurrect, and cannot forgive sin or give eternal life.
Anyone following a false jesus christ therefore, is not a true Christian.
Where this leads to, are groups and beliefs out there that have jesus christs of their own making.
A jesus that was born in philidelphia in 1954 is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus that was born in Israel in 500 A.D. is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus that teaches it is ok to hate others and to be deceitful towards others is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus who did not rise from the dead by his own power is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus who was not born in Bethlehem is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus who appeared to joseph smith and told him he was procreated by physical sexual relations by Mary and God the Father is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
A jesus who is a created being, and who is not YHWH god almighty as Christianity has always taught according to the scriptures, is not the true Jesus Christ who gives eternal life.
etc...etc....
So while your initial statement is true, when referring to the real, true Jesus Christ....it is not true when being applied to any of the false jesus' mentioned above, or any hundred more false jesus' one person or organization might whip up to follow after.
Only the Jesus Christ who is YHWH, can give eternal life. Follow the right, single, only, and true eternal Jesus Christ; and then you will have eternal life....something no false jesus or imposter jesus can ever give.
New and Improved
Hi Allyson,
I'm wondering what your perspective of the nature of Jesus is based on. What exactly leads you to reject the NT teaching that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh?
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
Psalm 19:14
2. But where is Jesus is God? Anybody can say they are a Christian, but all the things you say He is, and yet purposely deny that Jesus is God, your faith holds nothing but straw. Jesus is God. For he states, John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."I appreciate all the replies so thank you.. I work a lot so it hard to reply quickly sometimes. As I said before, I did not know where the appropriate forum to post would be. Thank you for the direction.
I do however still disagree with the suggestion that anyone who does not believe in the Trinity is not Christian.
The definition of a Christian is:
1. A believer in Jesus Christ as our Savior:
Yes,.. Jesus is our Savior. He sacrificed his perfect life so we could have back what Adam took from us.
2. Belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah.
Yes,.. Jesus is the precious Son of God and the Messiah. Anointed by God and is our King.
3. One who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Yes,...Jesus taught many things.. to love, be kind, have patience, be humble not to be judgemental...and much more... but the most important thing he taught, and his reason for coming to earth was to declare his Father name (John 17:26) and His Kingdom which he told us to pray for. ("The Lords Prayer" - Matthew 6:9) I accept and believe his teachings.
4. Kind and unselfish: showing qualities such as kindness, helpfulness, and concern for others.
Yes,.. I do my best everyday to show acts of kindness, patience and act unselfishly. This is something all of us must strive for.
Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.. I look forward to reading and posting again.
Allyson
I'd hate to think that someone who thinks they are saved - in reality never finds that their willful rejection that Jesus is God -- denies their own faith from being real, whether they understand it or not. Men have died holding false beliefs as truths, thinking that they are right, when real truth declares otherwise. It's one thing to know what you believe and why you believe it and have strong convictions about it. But it's another to believe in a false understanding that has eternal consequences and not even considering it.
So then why do you reject Jesus is God?
Last edited by Redeemed by Grace; Apr 26th 2012 at 09:53 PM.
"Enter by the Narrow Gate...
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
... there are few who find it."
-----------------------------------------------
* All Scripture when quoted is taken from:
The New American Standard Bible®,
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)
Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis
Posting Freak
Hello allyc33,
As some have stated, you seem to have had a strong Jehovah Witness influence (or something similar). To be "Christian" means to be a follower and disciple of Jesus. The problem I am sensing after reading through this thread is that you seem to have come under the influence of some (like the JWs) who vehemently deny the deity of Jesus. Their view of Jesus is not only incorrect - but is so serious that the claim can be made that they worship another Jesus (and therefore another god).
To be a Christian means that one begins to follow and to learn from Jesus (and the Holy Spirit). The primary point is that one must come to God and seek God's truths. The primary Christian truth (if such a thing can be called such) is that the Jesus of the New Testament is also the very God of the Old Testament. It is one thing as a new believer to not know or understand this, but it is another thing altogether to continue to reject the truth of His deity. Jesus is as fully God as is the Father and the Spirit. Faith must preceed understanding of this area; my hope is that your faith may increase so that you may then begin to understand this truth.
So what does your logic say of the passage where Jesus says, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"? And also, who can be perfect (good) except God alone? So why then do you call Christ good? (see Matthew 19:17) I think your logic is not without fault.
Last edited by Bandit; Jun 10th 2012 at 03:45 PM.
Posting Freak
I would not go quite that far. Every believer starts with lots of questions and misunderstandings. It is when they continually refuse to accept fundamental truths that their status before God comes into question. Let's try to give allyc33 the benefit of the doubt; he/she may simple be a new Christian who needs more exposure to the fundamental truth of Jesus' deity. But if he/she continues along this path of disbelief, then he/she alone will bear the responsibility of it. Let's, as Christian brothers and sisters, try to bring allyc33 to the full knowledge of the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord God Most High.
Grand Master
I don't think anyone's mentioned it so far: The belief that Jesus the Son is subordinate to God the Father is called Arianism (from Arius, an early exponent). John Milton (author of Paradise Lost and some other pretty good poems) is the most prominent latter-day example (I haven't read On Christian Doctrine myself, but I'm pretty sure it's widely accepted among scholars that Milton was Arian). The belief is way older than the Jehovah's Witnesses, is what I mean to say, contra some of the other posters in this thread (that is, JWs adopted an Arian position, not the other way around). It looks like Wikipedia has a good article on Arianism if you're interested in the history, etc. of the belief.
"We are symbols and inhabit symbols; workmen, work, and tools, words and things, birth and death, all are emblems; but we sympathize with the symbols, and being infatuated with the economical uses of things, we do not know that they are thoughts." - Emerson, "The Poet" (Essays, Second Series)
Good bye.
But don't you know? It's easier to villify others with guilt-by-association fallacies than to talk with reason and patience.
Posting Freak
John 5:23
For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.
Not believing in the notion of the trinity doesn’t make you a non-Christian. What it seems you are doing in your mind is embracing the distinctions between the Father and the Son while disregarding that the New Testament authors often put Jesus in the role of Yahweh/God. For example, Yahweh alone created, Yahweh judges, and calling on the name of Yahweh saves. Yet the NT authors write that Jesus created, Jesus judges, and calling on the name of the Lord Jesus saves. Indeed, it is written that every knee will bow and swear allegiance to Yahweh (Isaiah 45:23), yet Paul writes that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Philippians 2:10-11).
Scripture reveals that there is no savior besides Yahweh (Isaiah 43:11; 1 Tim. 1:1), yet Jesus is our savior (John 4:42; 2 Tim. 1:10). Scripture reveals that Yahweh alone created all things (Isaiah 44:24), so Jesus cannot be a co-creator with Yahweh. And when Scripture says that Yahweh will not share His glory with another, I don’t think He was being disingenuous. Jesus is not “another”; Jesus is Yahweh [as man].
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