I dont get it..Does believing Jesus is Gods SON make you a non-Christian?

[Sojourner55]

Ah yes, they believe Jesus / Holy Spirit / the Father are simply manifestations of the same, one, God. Well, they still deny the trinity -.-

True. Still, it's a non-salvation doctrine. I believe if we trust in the blood of Jesus, and are filled with the Spirit of God, we belong to Him. And once we do, He will deal with us individually with regard to things that matter to Him, including any doctrinal misunderstanding. Knowing some Oneness people personally, I know that not believing in the trinity is the only thing they have in common with the other groups you mention--whose status as Christian is questionable at best. If you ever sat in a service with Oneness Pentecostals, you'd know they're Spirit-filled Christians. Just my two cents.

[John 8:32]

And I suppose you could throw in Armstrongism, to name a few.

Being familiar with Armsrongism, I can tell you that they did at one time believe...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Absolutely and taught that Christ is God, has always been and always will be.

Your facts are in error.

[Athanasius]

True. Still, it's a non-salvation doctrine. I believe if we trust in the blood of Jesus, and are filled with the Spirit of God, we belong to Him. And once we do, He will deal with us individually with regard to things that matter to Him, including any doctrinal misunderstanding. Knowing some Oneness people personally, I know that not believing in the trinity is the only thing they have in common with the other groups you mention--whose status as Christian is questionable at best. If you ever sat in a service with Oneness Pentecostals, you'd know they're Spirit-filled Christians. Just my two cents.

That's nice. I never said it was a salvific issue, necessarily.

Being familiar with Armsrongism, I can tell you that they did at one time believe...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Absolutely and taught that Christ is God, has always been and always will be.

Your facts are in error.

I didn't realize the apostle John was an Armstrongian, but thanks for that.

Moving beyond assertions: Armstrongism is different than the World Wide Church of God is different than Grace Communion International. Armstrongism originally espoused problematic beliefs, e.g. concerning the Trinity, personhood of the Holy Spirit, etc. Later developments involving the WCG and GCI corrected these errors, and you can read about it here, on the once-Armstrongian but now Grace Communion International website: http://www.gci.org/aboutus/history. Obviously my prior posts are concerned more with the Trinity than strictly the personhood of Christ, and in this case Armstrongism's view that God was a family is problematic to a Trinitarian understanding of God.

[Sojourner55]

That's nice. I never said it was a salvific issue, necessarily.

I Didn't mean to imply that you did.

[Silvermist]

This thread confuses me terribly. It's driving me crazy to think about. Maybe I have a pea-sized brain but I see them as three persons, with three functions, who are in total agreement, therefor they are one.

If the Bible didn't say that Jesus prayed to the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that He sits at the right hand of the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that only the Father knows the day and time of the end, I might see Him as God. If it didn't say that He will send the Spirit to the believer, I might see Him as God.

[LookingUp]

This thread confuses me terribly. It's driving me crazy to think about. Maybe I have a pea-sized brain but I see them as three persons, with three functions, who are in total agreement, therefor they are one.

If the Bible didn't say that Jesus prayed to the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that He sits at the right hand of the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that only the Father knows the day and time of the end, I might see Him as God. If it didn't say that He will send the Spirit to the believer, I might see Him as God.

Jesus is included in the act of creation (Col. 1:16). How can that be true if Yahweh alone created (Isaiah 44:24)? I feel compelled to accept that Jesus must somehow in some way be included within the identity of Yahweh for Col. 1:16 and Isa. 44:24 to reconcile. How else could one reconcile them?

[Sojourner55]

This thread confuses me terribly. It's driving me crazy to think about. Maybe I have a pea-sized brain but I see them as three persons, with three functions, who are in total agreement, therefor they are one.

If the Bible didn't say that Jesus prayed to the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that He sits at the right hand of the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that only the Father knows the day and time of the end, I might see Him as God. If it didn't say that He will send the Spirit to the believer, I might see Him as God.

There are many, many passages of Scripture that clearly, emphatically and irrefutably present Jesus as God robed in humanity. These have been cited numerous times across many threads. Here are but a few examples: Jesus prayed that God would glorify Him with the glory He had before Creation (John 17:5); He stated that He existed before Abraham--who lived 2000 years before He was born (John 8:58); He actually said that it was He whom Abraham saw (John 8:56). How could these things be true unless Jesus was and is God? His deity is a matter of comprehension and acceptance rather a question of Scriptural evidence.

[awestruckchild]

This thread confuses me terribly. It's driving me crazy to think about. Maybe I have a pea-sized brain but I see them as three persons, with three functions, who are in total agreement, therefor they are one.

If the Bible didn't say that Jesus prayed to the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that He sits at the right hand of the Father, I might be able to see Him as God. If it didn't say that only the Father knows the day and time of the end, I might see Him as God. If it didn't say that He will send the Spirit to the believer, I might see Him as God.

Yeah, I agree - it's confusing. These threads always are.
In the end, you have to settle things like this by what God Himself shows you.
Some of my confusion was cleared up awhile back by one little verse. It is in Revelation, where it says they bow down and worship the Lamb of God. If all of heaven worships Him, and God will truck with no man worshiping anyone but Him, then I had to reason that He certainly wouldn't truck with that nonsense going on in heaven either! Still doesn't answer every single question I have, but it sure does settle for me that in some way that I can't always fathom, He is God, and since the angels worship Him as such, knowing far more about Him than ME, and since His blood saved me, I will worship Him too!
Now as to whether you think of Him as an aspect of God, or one of the ways God appeared to us, or God in a human form emptied to a large extent so we could fathom Him, or as "The Trinity, " if you WORSHIP Him, and do not believe He is God, there's a little bit of a problem there, I think....

[guestman]

I consider myself a Christian in every way. I believe Jesus is our Savior.. I believe our Father is Almighty GOD... I have a strong love for BOTH and appreciate the love they have shown us all... But I do not believe Jesus equal to God..

I posted here in Bible Chat, but I seriously dont even know where to post. Do some feel that if I dont believe in the Trinity I am possibly considered by some, a non-Christian?

There are many who feel that God, Jesus and the holy spirit are "one" in a "Godhead". However, the Bible does not support this thought. Here are some Scriptures to show that Jesus is indeed God's Son, subject to his Father. At Hebrew 5:7-10, it says "In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek."

Questions - If Jesus is God, then why did he have "godly fear" and who heard him ? If Jesus is God, then how was it that he "learned obedience" ? Does God have to become obedient to anyone ? Since God is perfect, setting the standards for perfection, then how could Jesus be "made perfect" if he is God ? How could Jesus be God and yet be "called by God" for the position of "a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek." ?

At Matthew 24:36, Jesus said concerning the moment the "great tribulation" will begin that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Since God has all knowledge, even able to foretell the future thousands of years in advance, then how is it that Jesus was not aware when the "great tribulation" would break lose, if he is God ?

At Matthew 26:39, Jesus says in prayer that "my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” How could Jesus be God and yet pray for not his "will" to take place but his Father's ?

At John 14:28, Jesus said that "my Father is greater than I."(King James Bible) If Jesus is God, would the Father be greater than him ?

At John 17:3, Jesus said that "this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." How could he be God and yet pray to the "only true God" ?

At John 20:17, Jesus said to Mary: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” How could Jesus be God and yet ' ascend to his God ' ?

At John 8:28,29, Jesus said that "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.” How could Jesus be God and yet be "taught" ? Furthermore, how could Jesus be God and yet do "nothing of (his) own initiative " ? Too, how could Jesus "always do the things pleasing to (God)", if he is God ?

Too, at Philippians 2:9, the apostle Paul wrote that "God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:"(King James Bible) How could Jesus be God and yet be "exalted" or be given a "name which is above every other name" ? Is there any "name" higher than God's ?

The apostle John said some sixty five years after Jesus death and resurrection, that "at no time has anyone beheld God." (1 John 4:12 ) How could the apostle John say this truthfully if Jesus is God ? (hint: he couldn't)

At Colossians 1:15, the apostle Paul wrote that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" How could he be God and yet be his "firstborn" ?

At 1 Corinthians 15:24, Paul wrote that Jesus "hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." How could Jesus be God and yet "hand over the kingdom" to God ? In verse 28, Paul says that after the "last enemy, death is... brought to nothing", then he says that "when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone". If Jesus is God, then how is it that ' the Son himself will also subject himself to God' ?

The apostle John wrote that "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;"(John 13:3 King James Bible) How could Jesus be God and have "come from God" and then "went to God" ?

At 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6, Paul wrote that "there are many “gods” and many “lords, there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." If Jesus is God, then why did Paul single him out from God, identifying only "one God the Father" as God ?

And it is of great interest that since Jesus was perfect, never having made a mistake, then why did he use the terms "Son" for himself and "Father", if both are God, equal ? Using the wrong terminology would spell imperfection on the part of Jesus, if he is not really the Son, but God. On the other hand, since Jesus "committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth"(1 Pet 2:22), the language he used fits precisely, that he is God's "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), the "firstborn of all creation" (Rev 3:14), having been created (as a son) and that his Father, Jehovah, is the "only true God".(John 17:3)

[Diggindeeper]

Obviously you are not considering scriptures like this:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And this:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

And this:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Christ was there, in all his glory, before the foundation of the world. He just was not clothed in flesh, as we are. He did not begin as a baby in a manger! But by him were all things made and without him there was nothing made that was made.

That is why God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" (Genesis 1:26)

But of course, Jehovah's Witnesses can't see that for some unknown reason. I can't understand why that is.

[Sojourner55]

Obviously you are not considering scriptures like this:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And this:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

And this:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Christ was there, in all his glory, before the foundation of the world. He just was not clothed in flesh, as we are. He did not begin as a baby in a manger! But by him were all things made and without him there was nothing made that was made.

That is why God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" (Genesis 1:26)

But of course, Jehovah's Witnesses can't see that for some unknown reason. I can't understand why that is.

These and every other passage that demonstrates the eternal existence of Jesus have been presented time and again. But those who have their minds made up, simply ignore them. Until one understands that Jesus was as human as we are--in addition to His deity--they will never be able to reconcile His limitations and subordination with His deity. And these types of debates will recur and go on indefinitely.

[David Taylor]

Until the Holy Spirit changes someone from within, their is no change. Seeing, they see not, hearing, they hear not. They don't listen to the voice of Jesus who is God living inside them, because theyve rejected Him; in favor of a different jesus, created from the minds of the Watchtown bible and tract society organization; whose goal is to train people to reject the true God-man Jesus christ, who was crucified on a cross, the eternal God paying the eternal price for the eternal wages of sin.

Until they allow the Holy Spirit to come in, they will continue to remain blind.

[guestman]

Obviously you are not considering scriptures like this:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And this:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

And this:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Christ was there, in all his glory, before the foundation of the world. He just was not clothed in flesh, as we are. He did not begin as a baby in a manger! But by him were all things made and without him there was nothing made that was made.

That is why God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" (Genesis 1:26)

But of course, Jehovah's Witnesses can't see that for some unknown reason. I can't understand why that is.

It is obvious that John 17:3 has no substance at all, though Jesus made a point blank statement, saying "you, the only true God", not me. This is no different than how the religious leaders reacted to Stephens words concerning Jesus as the Messiah, completely disregarding the evidence and becoming angry.(Acts 7:54, 55)

Does John 17:5 give proof that Jesus is God ? No, for all Jesus asked was to be glorified alongside the Father "with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." To extrapolate that Jesus is God from this requires a gullible person.

And of John 17:22, to infer that Jesus is God because he said "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one", again requires a person be gullible, unwilling to reason effectively on the Bible. It should be of great interest to sincere Bible students that Jesus said concerning "oneness", that "they may be one just as we are one." Hence, if Jesus and the Father are literally "one" (as the churches teach in a "Godhead"), then also must Jesus disciples be literally "one". But most never consider this nor the context, but blindly push forward with the trinity doctrine.

The same goes for John 17:24, whereby Jesus said: "Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world." Thence, these Scriptures in no way purport that Jesus is God simply because he asks of his Father to have the same glory he had "before the founding of the world." In fact, if Jesus is God, then why is Jesus even asking for the return of glory he had before coming to the earth ? If Jesus is God and equal to the Father, then why is he requesting glory ?

Just because "Christ was there, in all his glory, before the foundation of the world", can it be concluded that Jesus is God, since he had already said clearly and without reservation, that of his Father, "you, the only true God" at John 17:3 ? What part of "only" do you not understand ? Obviously, you have trouble grasping the English language. The word "only" means "the single person or thing: used to indicate the single person or thing involved in a situation."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

Indeed, at Genesis 1:26, God did say to his Son: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness", just as they were together in saying: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."(Gen 3:22) Had you grasped Proverbs 8:30, then you could have readily seen that Jesus, as wisdom personified, is God's "master worker"(Hebrew ’a·mohn´; having the sense of "training", "cunning workman", a "skilled architect", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H525 and H542)

Working together, with Jesus as God's "master worker", they made the universe. At Colossians 1:16, it says that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth."

Hence, Jesus is not God, but is his "helper", his chief spokesman, called The Word at John 1:1 and of which the apostle Paul said: "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being."(Heb 1:1-3)

[Athanasius]

It is obvious that John 17:3 has no substance at all, though Jesus made a point blank statement, saying "you, the only true God", not me. This is no different than how the religious leaders reacted to Stephens words concerning Jesus as the Messiah, completely disregarding the evidence and becoming angry.(Acts 7:54, 55)

This is almost a Niel Degrasse Tyson moment, almost...

John 17:3 is not an instance of Jesus denying is own divinity. What John 17:3 seems to quite clearly saying, is that 'eternal life' is knowing the Father and Jesus Christ. John has, in other words, provided a definition of 'eternal life', and isn't necessarily to be understood as making a theological statement towards the ontological status as Jesus. Eternal life is knowing God. Additionally, John 17:3 seems to be correlative to John 1:4, 1:18, 3:15-16, 4:14, 5:21, 26; 6:33, 54; 10:10 and 14:6. It might be said then, that knowledge of the Father comes through relational knowledge with the Son (requiring that the Son be as much God as the Father is God). Given the many Old Testament declarations of God alone as Savior, it is incredibly odd for John, an educated Jew, to then be expressing what is heresy at best: salvation through a man God glorified, rather than God himself? It doesn't float. God doesn't glorify men, nor does God save men through anyone but Himself.

Does John 17:5 give proof that Jesus is God ? No, for all Jesus asked was to be glorified alongside the Father "with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." To extrapolate that Jesus is God from this requires a gullible person.

To extrapolate that this verse points to Jesus being God is not at all gullible (you're going to have to do better than assertions and shaming). It very clearly states, "with the glory I had alongside you before the world was", and this immediately raises the question "what glory did Jesus have alongside the father before the world was?". If Diggendeeper is guilty of ignoring John 17:3, you're guilty of ignoring John 17:5. Does that then make you the religious leader, and her the 'Stephen'? In any case, neither of you really engaged with this verse.

And of John 17:22, to infer that Jesus is God because he said "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one", again requires a person be gullible, unwilling to reason effectively on the Bible. It should be of great interest to sincere Bible students that Jesus said concerning "oneness", that "they may be one just as we are one." Hence, if Jesus and the Father are literally "one" (as the churches teach in a "Godhead"), then also must Jesus disciples be literally "one". But most never consider this nor the context, but blindly push forward with the trinity doctrine.

You're right, John 17:22 would seem to be speaking of 'oneness' within the context of mission or purpose, and not oneness with respect to ontological status. At the same time you can cut the personal jabs / commentary: they're unnecessary. You're not some prophet to whom some Gnostic truth has been personally illuminated; you're not the only educated scholar among a crowd of gullible idiots. Do play nice.

The same goes for John 17:24, whereby Jesus said: "Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world." Thence, these Scriptures in no way purport that Jesus is God simply because he asks of his Father to have the same glory he had "before the founding of the world." In fact, if Jesus is God, then why is Jesus even asking for the return of glory he had before coming to the earth ? If Jesus is God and equal to the Father, then why is he requesting glory?

In John 17:24 Jesus isn't asking the Father for a return of his glory; rather, he is asking the Father that the disciples might see his glory (Jesus' glory), which he has had 'before the foundation of the world'. This not only suggests the pre-existence of the Son (Jesus), but raises the question of why did Jesus, if he was only a man, have glory before the foundation of the world? These are things that need to be considered, and they won't be considered properly if you misread the verse.

Just because "Christ was there, in all his glory, before the foundation of the world", can it be concluded that Jesus is God, since he had already said clearly and without reservation, that of his Father, "you, the only true God" at John 17:3 ? What part of "only" do you not understand ? Obviously, you have trouble grasping the English language. The word "only" means "the single person or thing: used to indicate the single person or thing involved in a situation."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

It would really be wise of you to cut the attitude.

Briefly (again) on John 17:3. It's one thing for Jesus to say of God the father, 'You are the only true God', and quite another for Jesus to say, 'I'm not God'. We also need to keep in mind that Jesus was praying as a man to the Father. This is in addition to what I brought up above.

Indeed, at Genesis 1:26, God did say to his Son: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness", just as they were together in saying: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."(Gen 3:22) Had you grasped Proverbs 8:30, then you could have readily seen that Jesus, as wisdom personified, is God's "master worker"(Hebrew ’a·mohn´; having the sense of "training", "cunning workman", a "skilled architect", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H525 and H542)

It would take a gullible person to not realize that you didn't provide an answer to Genesis 1:26, instead shifting to Proverbs 8:30. By the way that's great you pointed out Proverbs 8:30, why don't you go re-read Colossians 1:16 (think about that 'image of the invisible God' for a bit longer. It's not equivalent phrasing to Genesis 1:26), and while you're at it, say something else about Genesis 1:26. You know, something that actually addresses Genesis 1:26.

Working together, with Jesus as God's "master worker", they made the universe. At Colossians 1:16, it says that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth."

Hence, Jesus is not God, but is his "helper", his chief spokesman, called The Word at John 1:1 and of which the apostle Paul said: "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being."(Heb 1:1-3)

You're far from a 'hence'. God glorifying a man, what a laugh. You'd have to be really unthinkingly gullible to believe that.

[Bandit]

... To extrapolate that Jesus is God from this requires a gullible person.

And of John 17:22, to infer that Jesus is God because he said "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one", again requires a person be gullible, unwilling to reason effectively on the Bible. It should be of great interest to sincere Bible students that Jesus said concerning "oneness", that "they may be one just as we are one." Hence, if Jesus and the Father are literally "one" (as the churches teach in a "Godhead"), then also must Jesus disciples be literally "one". But most never consider this nor the context, but blindly push forward with the trinity doctrine.

Well consider me gullible. Consider that believers are equal to one another - though different believers have differ offices. So it is with the Father and the Son: they are equal to one another though they may have different offices.