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Thread: Time of trouble

  1. #61
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    That isn't all possible generational applications. Why do you assume that the word "generation" can only refer to people who live during a certain time period (usually of around 40 years or so)? Do you not know that the word (Greek: genea) has other definitions besides that? Look at this verse:

    Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Notice that Jesus compared "this generation" to "the men of Nineveh". He was not comparing two time periods, He was comparing two people groups: believing Ninevites and unbelieving Jews. So, in that passage "this generation" was not a reference to people living only in that particular time period but was a reference to unbelieving Jews.

    I believe every time Jesus said "this generation" He was not speaking of a particular time period but of the unbelieving Jewish people in general. You asked about Matt 23:36. Let's look at the verse in context.

    Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Notice that He speaks of "this generation" as being those who He would send "unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify". Then He speaks of "Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets". So, He was directly associating "this generation" with "Jerusalem" or more specifically Jewish unbelievers who killed the prophets. But it wasn't just the Jews of that time period who killed the prophets of God. Their descendants also killed the prophets so Jesus was referring to a type of people and not just to those who are alive at that time.

    Notice that Jesus referred to them as a "generation of vipers". He was not identifying them by the time period in which they were living, He was identifying them by their wickedness. Notice He was even holding them responsible for "the blood of righteous Abel". The Jews living then obviously didn't kill Abel so that means He was referring to a type of people (who were like Cain - wicked) rather than just people who were alive during a certain period of time. That can be seen from the passage in Matthew 12 as well. He contrasted "this generation" with the Ninevites. He was not contrasting chronological generations there, He was contrasting two different types of people with "this generation" being unbelieving Jews and the other type of people being believing Ninevites.

    The context of Christ's use of the phrase "this generation" just does not support the idea that He was referring to a chronological generation rather than to a certain type of people. He said He didn't know the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13), so how could He have known that His coming would occur and "this generation" would pass away within about 40 years? I don't think that makes sense. I believe He was saying that "this generation" would not pass away until His coming occurred at the end of the age, whenever that might be (He didn't know). So, for all He knew His coming and "this generation" passing away wouldn't occur for thousands of years. All He knew is that the things He talked about, particularly in relation to His coming, would have to occur first before "this generation" would pass away.
    Very good points and a excellent post

  2. #62
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7


    LET'S CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.

    CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:


    b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)

    - Impossible: -these buildings and are already destroyed.
    - Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all nations again at Christ's second coming.
    - Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.
    Most of your concerns have been addressed in post#59, however I would like to rectify a common misunderstanding concerning 'dual fulfillment.' It is not meant to imply exact 'dual' - ie. event by event repeating. It means that an early event goes some of the way and a later, fuller event completes the prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7
    Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
    No, much of the latter part remains to be fulfilled. AD70 fulfilled the early aspects of the prophecy completely and the latter aspects in a precursive sense pointing to a greater finale to come. AD70 on its own did not satisfy the description given.

    There are plenty examples of near-far (dual) fulfillment of prophecy if it is not misrepresented in the way you have done.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  3. #63
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Hi Cyberseeker,

    Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?

    <<No, much of the latter part remains to be fulfilled.>>

    Can you list the events in verses 1 - 35 that did not occur by 70 AD and reference the verses where these unfulfilled events are found?

    Thanks.

    Vander

  4. #64
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Hi John14

    <<Why do you assume that the word "generation" can only refer to people who live during a certain time period (usually of around 40 years or so)?>>

    Actually I never said 40 years or any length of time. You have added to my words and then run with that strawman. My contention is that “this generation” on the lips of Jesus invariably referred to people who were then living at the time.


    <<Matt 12: 41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    Notice that Jesus compared "this generation" to "the men of Nineveh". He was not comparing two time periods, He was comparing two people groups: believing Ninevites and unbelieving Jews. So, in that passage "this generation" was not a reference to people living only in that particular time period but was a reference to unbelieving Jews.>>


    No, actually it was referencing people who were alive at the time.

    <<Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Notice that He speaks of "this generation" as being those who He would send "unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify". Then He speaks of "Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets". So, He was directly associating "this generation" with "Jerusalem" or more specifically Jewish unbelievers who killed the prophets. But it wasn't just the Jews of that time period who killed the prophets of God. Their descendants also killed the prophets so Jesus was referring to a type of people and not just to those who are alive at that time.>>


    Yes, He was directly comparing the people He was addressing (Scribes and Pharisees vs 29) with previous murderers. “This generation” (the people then living) would experience the judgment for all the righteous blood shed from Able to Zacharias.

    <<Notice that Jesus referred to them as a "generation of vipers". He was not identifying them by the time period in which they were living...>>

    Never said He was.

    <<I believe He was saying that "this generation" would not pass away until His coming occurred at the end of the age..., whenever that might be (He didn't know). So, for all He knew His coming and "this generation" passing away wouldn't occur for thousands of years. All He knew is that the things He talked about, particularly in relation to His coming, would have to occur first before "this generation" would pass away.>>

    It seems clear to me that in all of the passages quoted, Jesus was being absolutely generation specific. He very specifically singled out his Christ rejecting generation as evil, adulterous and unfaithful. The very people Jesus expressed His holy anger toward in Matthew 23 were the ones who would experience the horrible vengeance of God....

    “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees....that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Able unto the blood of Zacharias...whom you slew between the temple and the alter. Verily I say to you, All these things shall come upon this generation.”

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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7
    Can you list the events in verses 1 - 35 that did not occur by 70 AD and reference the verses where these unfulfilled events are found?
    Here are four for starters:


    1. highly visible (conspicuous, literal) return of Christ (verse 27)
    2. sun and moon darkened (verse 29)
    3. solar system shaken / asteroids impact surface of earth (verse 29)
    4. very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)


    etc. etc.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  6. #66
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Hi Cyberseeker,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Here are four for starters:


    1. highly visible (conspicuous, literal) return of Christ (verse 27)
    2. sun and moon darkened (verse 29)
    3. solar system shaken / asteroids impact surface of earth (verse 29)
    4. very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)


    etc. etc.


    Excellent list. Thank you.


    highly visible (conspicuous, literal) return of Christ (verse 27)

    Yes, the word for coming here is Parousia...which would not occur during
    the onslaught...but at a later unknown time and which (being worldwide)
    no one could flee to the mountains beyond Judea to escape.

    26. WHEREFORE IF THEY SHALL SAY UNTO YOU,
    BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT; GO NOT FORTH:
    BEHOLD; HE IS IN THE SECRET CHAMBERS; BELIEVE IT NOT.

    Jews expected the Messiah to come suddenly from some
    unexpected quarter to deliver from Roman onslaught.
    Jesus warns His followers not to believe or follow
    these pretenders (go not forth) to these desert places.
    The Messiah will not be holding up in some concealed house
    or chamber. Christians were not to expect a hidden personal
    visitation (coming/parousia) during the siege

    27. FOR AS THE LIGHTENING COMETH OUT OF THE
    EAST, AND SHINETH EVEN UNTO THE WEST; SO SHALL
    ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE.

    This verse stands in contrast to the preceding verses. It contrasts
    Christ's Second Coming with His coming in judgment upon
    Jerusalem. The disciples were not to expect the parousia of Christ
    to deliver Israel during these difficulties. The personal second
    coming(parousia) would not occur in secret places like deserts or
    houses,. No one would need to be informed when this coming
    occurred. The second coming (parousia) would be a visible and
    worldwide event of great magnitude. Jesus here clarifies the
    distinction between his coming in judgment on Jerusalem at the
    close of the Jewish age and his second personal coming at the end
    of the gospel age.


    sun and moon darkened (verse 29)
    solar system shaken / asteroids impact surface of earth (verse 29)



    29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
    DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
    NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
    FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
    SHALL BE SHAKEN:

    Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
    the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
    by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
    tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
    Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
    God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
    His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
    Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
    shine for Israel of the flesh.

    QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and
    stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?

    WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
    find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
    Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.
    Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
    "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
    and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
    sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
    constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
    darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
    to shine.

    If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
    figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
    like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
    describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

    Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of
    Idumea, Isaiah writes:
    And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
    shall be rolled together as a scroll...
    For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come
    down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
    judgment.

    If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
    figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
    insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
    language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
    Israel?

    Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
    incorporates similar vivid language.
    "Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
    Egypt...
    And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
    will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
    cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
    lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
    upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
    If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
    figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
    like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
    describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
    Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

    OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO
    ISRAEL.
    Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
    And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
    and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
    and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
    of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
    place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
    Mat.16:28)


    very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)



    31. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT
    SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER
    TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM
    ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Is.27:13 Mi.1:1-3)

    The trumpet represents a proclamation. In this case it is the
    gospel. The term angelos is frequently used in the New Testament
    to refer to earthly messengers (i.e. the followers of Christ)
    Lu.7:24, 9:32, Mk.1:2 II Cor. 8:33 They carry the gospel
    message and gather the elect into the kingdom throughout the
    earth (from one end of heaven to the other).

  7. #67
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Here are four for starters:


    1. highly visible (conspicuous, literal) return of Christ (verse 27)
    2. sun and moon darkened (verse 29)
    3. solar system shaken / asteroids impact surface of earth (verse 29)
    4. very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)
    Hi CS,

    I just came across this newly available commentary this morning:
    A Commentary on the New Testament From the Talmud and Hebraica by John Lightfoot

    Here is what it has to say on these verses:

    28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    [For wheresoever the carcase is, &c.] I wonder any can understand these words of pious men flying to Christ, when the discourse here is of quite a different thing: they are thus connected to the foregoing: Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it. And to this also agrees the answer of Christ, Luke 17:37; when, after the same words that are spoke here in this chapter, it was inquired, "Where, Lord?" he answered, "Wheresoever the body is," &c.; silently hinting thus much, that Jerusalem, and that wicked nation which he described through the whole chapter, would be the carcase, to which the greedy and devouring eagles would fly to prey upon it.

    29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    [The sun shall be darkened, &c.] That is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10, and Ezekiel 32:7,8, &c.

    30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    [And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

    31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    [And he shall send his angels, &c.] When Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church...

    34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    [This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

  8. #68
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Hi John14

    Actually I never said 40 years or any length of time. You have added to my words and then run with that strawman.
    Not purposely. I've never had a discussion with you before so I'm still learning what exactly you believe.

    My contention is that “this generation” on the lips of Jesus invariably referred to people who were then living at the time.
    I disagree. If that was the case then all of those living at the time would have had to still be alive in 70 AD in order for the judgment Jesus mentioned to come upon them. But many of them died before 70 AD so that is not what happened. He was referring specifically to that people group (unbelieving religious Jews in particular) and not just those living at the time.

    No, actually it was referencing people who were alive at the time.
    But not just them. Only some of those living at the time experienced what occurred in 70 AD so the context of who He was addressing was not just those living at the time, it was those type of people (unbelieving Jews). And that type of people/generation did not pass away in 70 AD. No, even though many of them died, that generation (the Jews) continued on even after 70 AD. If you think "this generation" passed away in 70 AD then how can that be? Wouldn't that have required all of the Jews who were alive at the time Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse to have died by 70 AD? But not all of them died. Some were led away captive (Luke 21:24).

    Yes, He was directly comparing the people He was addressing (Scribes and Pharisees vs 29) with previous murderers.
    That means He was addressing a certain type of people and not just those living at the time. Again, some of those who were living at the time died before 70 AD and some who were killed in 70 AD were born after that time (that Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse). So, He couldn't have been saying that all of the scribes and Pharisees living at the time would be killed. He was saying that type of people would be killed at some point and we know now that it ended up happening in 70 AD.

    “This generation” (the people then living) would experience the judgment for all the righteous blood shed from Able to Zacharias.
    It can't be referring to the people then living because that would require all of the people then living to experience that judgment. But that isn't what happened. Many of them died before that judgment came in 70 AD. Again, in order for your view to be correct would have required all of those living at the time to still be alive in 70 AD but that wasn't the case.

    It seems clear to me that in all of the passages quoted, Jesus was being absolutely generation specific.
    I agree but I think you're missing what the word "generation" (Greek: genea) means in that context. He was only speaking of that type of people and not just the people living at that time. Like I said, if He was referring only to the people living at that time then that would mean they all would have had to still be alive in 70 AD in order to experience that judgment.

    He very specifically singled out his Christ rejecting generation as evil, adulterous and unfaithful.
    But the Jews who came before them were also evil, adulterous and unfaithful. That's what you're not getting. He was speaking of the Jewish people in general and not just those alive at the time. That people group will not pass away until all the things Jesus talked about in relation to His future second coming at the end of the age are fulfilled.

  9. #69
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post

    very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)



    31. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT
    SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER
    TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM
    ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Is.27:13 Mi.1:1-3)

    The trumpet represents a proclamation. In this case it is the
    gospel. The term angelos is frequently used in the New Testament
    to refer to earthly messengers (i.e. the followers of Christ)
    Lu.7:24, 9:32, Mk.1:2 II Cor. 8:33 They carry the gospel
    message and gather the elect into the kingdom throughout the
    earth (from one end of heaven to the other).
    Here is the parallel verse from Mark 13:

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    You are saying that gathering "the elect into the kingdom throughout the earth" is what gathering the elect "from one end of heaven to the other" means, right? That's kind of an odd way of describing a gathering of the elect throughout the earth, isn't it? Seems like it would make more sense in that case that it would say "from one end of the earth to the other" since the gathering would be taking place on the earth.

    But how would you explain Mark 13:27? If gathering "the elect into the kingdom throughout the earth" means gathering the elect "from one end of heaven to the other" then what does it mean to gather the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"? Does that not indicate that the elect are gathered both from the earth and from heaven? I don't see how you can reconcile that with your view. In my view that would be referring to the fact that the souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven and will then descend from heaven and be joined with their resurrected and changed bodies and those who are alive and remain will be gathered from the earth and they all together will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming. So, I believe it's the same gathering Paul mentions in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and here:

    2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Here is the parallel verse from Mark 13:

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    You are saying that gathering "the elect into the kingdom throughout the earth" is what gathering the elect "from one end of heaven to the other" means, right? That's kind of an odd way of describing a gathering of the elect throughout the earth, isn't it? Seems like it would make more sense in that case that it would say "from one end of the earth to the other" since the gathering would be taking place on the earth.

    But how would you explain Mark 13:27? If gathering "the elect into the kingdom throughout the earth" means gathering the elect "from one end of heaven to the other" then what does it mean to gather the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"? Does that not indicate that the elect are gathered both from the earth and from heaven? I don't see how you can reconcile that with your view. In my view that would be referring to the fact that the souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven and will then descend from heaven and be joined with their resurrected and changed bodies and those who are alive and remain will be gathered from the earth and they all together will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming. So, I believe it's the same gathering Paul mentions in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and here:

    2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    Hi

    I really don't see a problem. Here are a few worthy comments on the text:

    Clarke writes:
    Mat 24:31 -
    He shall send his angels - Τους αγγελους, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.

    With a great sound of a trumpet - Or, a loud-sounding trumpet - the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.

    Shall gather together his elect - The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord’s prediction, Mat_8:11,Mat_8:12, and Luk_13:28,Luk_13:29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.

    John Gill writes:

    Mat 24:31 - And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels", because of their mission, and commission from Christ, to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness,

    With a great sound of a trumpet
    , meaning the Gospel; see Isa_27:13 so called in allusion either to the silver trumpets which Moses was ordered to make of one piece, and use them for the calling of the assembly, the journeying of the camps, blowing an alarm for war, and on their solemn and festival days, Num_10:1. The Gospel being rich and precious, all of a piece, useful for gathering souls to Christ, and to his churches; to direct saints in their journey to Canaan's land; to encourage them to fight the Lord's battles; and is a joyful sound, being a sound of love, grace, and mercy, peace, pardon, righteousness, life and salvation, by Christ: or else so called, in allusion to the trumpet blown in the year of "jubilee"; which proclaimed rest to the land, liberty to prisoners, a release of debts, and restoration of inheritances; as the Gospel publishes rest in Christ, liberty to the captives of sin, Satan, and the law, a payment of debts by Christ, and a release from them upon that, and a right and title to the heavenly inheritance. The Vulgate Latin reads it, "with a trumpet, and a great voice"; and so does Munster's Hebrew Gospel; and so it was read in four of Beza's copies:

    and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other;
    that is, by the ministration of the Gospel; the Spirit of God accompanying it with his power, and grace, the ministers of the word should gather out of the world unto Christ, and to his churches, such persons as God had, before the foundation of the world, chosen in Christ, unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth; wherever they are under the whole heavens, from one end to another; or in any part of the earth, though at the greatest distance; for in Mar_13:27 it is said, "from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of the heaven". The Jews (h) say, that "in the after redemption (i.e. by the Messiah) all Israel shall be gathered together by the sound of a trumpet, from the four parts of the world.

    Barnes writes (regarding the last segment only for sake of brevity):

    From the four winds
    - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. “From one end of heaven, etc.” Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word “heaven” is used here to denote the “visible” heavens or the sky, meaning that through “the whole world” he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.

  11. #71
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Hi,


    <<But the Jews who came before them were also evil, adulterous and unfaithful. That's what you're not getting. He was speaking of the Jewish people in general and not just those alive at the time.
    >:>

    Actually there have been evil people around since Adam. It seems clear that in Matthew 24 Jesus was referring to the generation that would experience God's vengeance that would culminate in Jerusalem's destruction. I don't believe His prophetic woe can be legitimately applied in any other way. I don't know how Jesus could have been more generation specific.

    Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." Jesus was very specific. He wasn't talking about bad Jews in the year 2000. He was talking about persons then living, His contemporaries.



    In Context Mat 23:29-36
    29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    How could Jesus have been more specific?

    31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna?

    Jesus is not talking about people in the 14th century. He is talking to the people He was about to abandon.

    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    Jesus knew exactly which generation would experience this judgment. It wasn't "these generations" or "this and that generation" or "all evil generations". That's why He closed with the words "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...how oft..." He knew exactly what was coming (every stone of the temple dismantled) and who would bear the weight of this judgment.

    To try to generalize "this generation" to apply to every evil Jew throughout history is totally unwarranted by the text.

  12. #72
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    To try to generalize "this generation" to apply to every evil Jew throughout history is totally unwarranted by the text.
    However, to make all of the events of 70AD fit what Jesus described leads to conclusions "totally unwarranted by the text". Quoting commentaries doesn't really change the fact that the events you describe as "fulfillments" of what Jesus predicted don't fit what He described, or how His audience would have understood what He was saying.

    The hermeneutical question you're avoiding by quoting commentaries is this: would Jesus' audience, having heard His words, have interpreted the events of 70AD as a complete fulfillment of those words?

    (We know that they did not. None of the epistles or gospels reflect that thinking)

    However, if they did have that viewpoint, why didn't the 1st and 2nd century leadership write about a "past Second Coming" and share your interpretation of the text? None of the ECF's were preteristic in their interpretation of the passages in question (and other prophetic scriptures as well).
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  13. #73
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Hi

    I really don't see a problem. Here are a few worthy comments on the text:
    None of which are from you. I'd rather talk to you since you actually post here. I'm not impressed with any of the commentators you referenced.

  14. #74
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie View Post
    However, to make all of the events of 70AD fit what Jesus described leads to conclusions "totally unwarranted by the text". Quoting commentaries doesn't really change the fact that the events you describe as "fulfillments" of what Jesus predicted don't fit what He described, or how His audience would have understood what He was saying.

    The hermeneutical question you're avoiding by quoting commentaries is this: would Jesus' audience, having heard His words, have interpreted the events of 70AD as a complete fulfillment of those words?

    (We know that they did not. None of the epistles or gospels reflect that thinking)

    However, if they did have that viewpoint, why didn't the 1st and 2nd century leadership write about a "past Second Coming" and share your interpretation of the text? None of the ECF's were preteristic in their interpretation of the passages in question (and other prophetic scriptures as well).
    Hi Rookie,

    Thanks for joining in.

    The second coming has not happened yet. I am not a preterist. We are both partial preterists. We both believe some of the things Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 (e.g. not one stone left upon another) occurred in the first century A.D.

    Apparently the Christians understood enough of what Jesus was saying to flee when the Roman armies retreated for a short time.

    ”Josephus tells us that when Cestius Gallus had earlier come with his army against Jerusalem, after some time he raised the siege. After he had left, many of the oldest of the Jews went out from Jerusalem as from a sinking ship. He says that a few years later, when Vespasian come with his troops against Jerusalem, a great multitude fled from Jerusalem to the mountains for security. It is reasonable to suppose that some Christians were among these. When Jerusalem was surrounded, the Christians were to think of their safety, and seize the first opportunity for flight. Jesus had warned them when these things started happening to flee into the mountains."

    Vander

  15. #75
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Hi,


    <<But the Jews who came before them were also evil, adulterous and unfaithful. That's what you're not getting. He was speaking of the Jewish people in general and not just those alive at the time.
    >:>

    Actually there have been evil people around since Adam.
    Of course. Jesus even referenced the murder of Abel. That's the point. The context of the word "generation" was that it referred to a type of people (unbelieving Jews in this case).

    It seems clear that in Matthew 24 Jesus was referring to the generation that would experience God's vengeance that would culminate in Jerusalem's destruction.
    That isn't clear to me at all. Christ's coming and the end of the age has not yet occurred and His coming is one of the things mentioned before verse 34. What I think you and many others don't understand is that Jesus spoke both of the local event that would occur in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD as well as the global event that would occur at His coming at the end of this temporal age.

    I don't believe His prophetic woe can be legitimately applied in any other way. I don't know how Jesus could have been more generation specific.
    You haven't addressed my points, though. You say "this generation" specifically refers to those who were alive at the time. Were all of those who were alive at the time killed in 70 AD? No, right? If He was speaking specifically only to those who were alive at the time and saying that they would be killed then what about those who were alive at the time and died before 70 AD? It seems to me that in order for your view to be true all of them who He was speaking about would have had to still be alive in 70 AD.

    Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." Jesus was very specific. He wasn't talking about bad Jews in the year 2000. He was talking about persons then living, His contemporaries.
    Yes, but not just them! He was speaking of any who would come after them who were like them as well! Do you know that there were some who were not yet alive at the time or became scribes or Pharisees after that time who were killed in 70 AD? They had the same attitude as those who were alive and were scribes and Pharisees at the time, so was Christ not talking about them as well? Of course He was because He was not just talking about those who were alive at the time but anyone else who would come along after them and was like them as well.

    In Context Mat 23:29-36
    29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    How could Jesus have been more specific?
    I know what you're saying, but I don't think you are getting my point. What I'm saying is probably new to you and something you haven't thought about before. So please think about it now instead of immediately dismissing it. Were the unbelieving Jews alive at the time the only ones who would end up being killed in 70 AD? If not then think about what that means because you are saying that they (the ones alive at the time) and only they are the ones who Jesus had in mind there. That is not the case. The ones He had in mind were a certain type of people (unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees) and not just the ones who were alive at that time.

    31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna?

    Jesus is not talking about people in the 14th century. He is talking to the people He was about to abandon.
    I know that, but He was not only talking about them! Again, were the ones who were alive at that time and were scribes and Pharisees the only ones to be killed in 70 AD? No! Those who became hypocritical scribes and Pharisees after that also were killed in 70 AD despite not being alive or at least not being scribes or Pharisees yet at the time.

    Jesus knew exactly which generation would experience this judgment. It wasn't "these generations" or "this and that generation" or "all evil generations". That's why He closed with the words "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...how oft..." He knew exactly what was coming (every stone of the temple dismantled) and who would bear the weight of this judgment.

    To try to generalize "this generation" to apply to every evil Jew throughout history is totally unwarranted by the text.
    I'm saying "this generation" means "this people group", as in the Jews (unbelieving Jews in particular). Obviously, those who had already died weren't going to be killed so He wasn't talking about anyone being killed except SOME of the unbelieving Jews alive at the time (since some of them died before 70 AD and some became Christians before 70 AD) AND some who would become scribes and Pharisees after that but before 70 AD. If "this generation" refers only to those who were alive at the time then that would mean only those alive at the time Jesus was speaking should have been killed in 70 AD, wouldn't it? But that is not what happened. Plenty of others besides them were killed as well and not all of them were killed in 70 AD. That's something you have to take into consideration when determining who "this generation" refers to exactly.

    I have two questions for you. Who exactly are the ones who are included in "this generation"? And, did "this generation" pass away in 70 AD?

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