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Thread: Time of trouble

  1. #76
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Hi Rookie,

    Thanks for joining in.

    The second coming has not happened yet. I am not a preterist. We are both partial preterists. We both believe some of the things Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 (e.g. not one stone left upon another) occurred in the first century A.D.

    Apparently the Christians understood enough of what Jesus was saying to flee when the Roman armies retreated for a short time.

    ”Josephus tells us that when Cestius Gallus had earlier come with his army against Jerusalem, after some time he raised the siege. After he had left, many of the oldest of the Jews went out from Jerusalem as from a sinking ship. He says that a few years later, when Vespasian come with his troops against Jerusalem, a great multitude fled from Jerusalem to the mountains for security. It is reasonable to suppose that some Christians were among these. When Jerusalem was surrounded, the Christians were to think of their safety, and seize the first opportunity for flight. Jesus had warned them when these things started happening to flee into the mountains."

    Vander
    But, typically, people who are labeled as partial preterists believe that Matt 24:29-31 was fulfilled in 70 AD just as you do. So, that particular belief of yours, at least, is in line with what partial preterists typically believe. What is your understanding of Matt 25:1-13 and Matt 25:31-46? Do you believe those refer to the future second coming of Christ or to the same coming of Christ that you believe occurred in 70 AD?

  2. #77
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Hi John146,

    What is your understanding of Matt 25:1-13 and Matt 25:31-46? Do you believe those refer to the future second coming of Christ or to the same coming of Christ that you believe occurred in 70 AD?

    Yes, I associate the judgments in the parables in Matthew 25 with the future imminent second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

  3. #78
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    Re: Time of trouble


    Matthew 24 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)


    1And Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple.

    2And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down."

    3And as He sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming (Parousia) and of the end of the age?"

    4And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you;

    5for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.

    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in divers places.

    8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    10And then shall many lose faith and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.

    11And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.

    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Luke 21: 18But there shall not a hair of your head perish.)

    14And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.


    15"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), (Luke 21: 20"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let them that are in the midst of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.)

    16then let them that be in Judea flee unto the mountains.

    17Let him that is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;

    18neither let him that is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.

    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22And unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

    23Then if any man shall say unto you, `Lo, here is Christ,' or `there,' believe it not.

    24For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25Behold, I have told you before.

    26Therefore, if they shall say unto you, `Behold, He is in the desert!' go not forth; or `Behold, He is in the secret chambers!' believe it not.

    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be.

    28For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

    30and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory.

    31And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32"Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh.

    33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.

    35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.


    36But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

    37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

    38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark

    39and knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

    40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.

    41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.

    42"Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    43But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched and would not have suffered his house to be broken into.

    44Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.

  4. #79
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
    Hi John146,

    What is your understanding of Matt 25:1-13 and Matt 25:31-46? Do you believe those refer to the future second coming of Christ or to the same coming of Christ that you believe occurred in 70 AD?

    Yes, I associate the judgments in the parables in Matthew 25 with the future imminent second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    So do I. So, I'm confused as to why you would not see a connection between the coming of the Son of man mentioned in those passages with the coming of the Son of man mentioned in Matt 24:27-31. I see a direct connection between the gathering of the elect in Matt 24:31 and the gathering of the wise virgins (believers) up to the bridegroom (Christ) in Matt 25:10.

  5. #80
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post

    Matthew 24 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)


    1And Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple.

    2And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down."

    3And as He sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming (Parousia) and of the end of the age?"

    4And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you;

    5for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.

    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    7For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in divers places.

    8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    10And then shall many lose faith and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.

    11And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.

    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

    13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Luke 21: 18But there shall not a hair of your head perish.)

    14And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.


    15"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), (Luke 21: 20"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let them that are in the midst of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.)

    16then let them that be in Judea flee unto the mountains.


    Etc, etc, etc....
    I can see that you bolded a couple things in that passage but I'm not exactly sure what point you were trying to make here. Can you clarify that?

  6. #81

    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker
    1. highly visible (conspicuous, literal) return of Christ (verse 27)
    2. sun and moon darkened (verse 29)
    3. solar system shaken / asteroids impact surface of earth (verse 29)
    4. very loud (conspicuous) trumpet call (verse 31)
    If I may...

    1. The text does not call this a 'return' of Christ. It variably calls this his 'coming' or his 'presence'. At this point in the text, the physical appearance of Christ is not a required interpretation of either of these words, any more than it would be of God's various 'comings' in the Prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.). This verse simply stresses that the coming of Christ (whatever kind of coming it is, literal or not) would be obvious, per the fulfillment of Jesus' words. Obvious does not necessarily mean visible (and even less so 'literal'). The original question from the disciples was when Jesus' would have his coming/presence. They weren't asking about a second coming event, because they had no concept of him leaving, let alone returning. Making the context about Jesus' second coming is anachronistic. They were asking about his accession as King of Israel (to Greek-speakers, this event was called a parousia, or 'presence'). Jesus is telling them that he's not going to be hanging out in a desert, or hiding in some closet, all the while Jerusalem is crashing down under the weight of the Romans. The fact that he uses the language of a 'son of man coming on the clouds of heaven' should show that this isn't about him coming down to earth; in Daniel 7, the son of man was going up to heaven. He is telling them that when they see Jerusalem being destroyed, it is an outward sign that his parousia (his presence as king) has come, that he has surely ascended to the throne of God and begun his reign.

    2,3. This is common prophetic hyperbole. Several examples are found in the Prophets, none of which refer to a literal darkening of the sun and moon. It is telling that you find it necessary to take these verses 'literally', but then change the meaning of 'stars falling' to 'solar system shaken' and 'asteroids impact surface of earth'. On the one hand, you think it's necessary to take the text 'literally', but on the other hand, you're not taking it literally. You are trying to put yourself into the perspective of an ancient Jew, to accommodate for the otherwise universe-spanning language of the text that would 'literally' be impossible (short of planet earth freezing over and being obliterated). Hence, where an ancient Jew would say 'the heavens will be shaken', you take that to mean, from an ancient Jewish perspective, that the 'solar system' is shaken. The irony is that you're not really putting yourself in that ancient perspective, because if you did (I think) it would be difficult to dismiss the Old Testament examples of this exact same language being used multiple times, none of which were to be interpreted literally. We should ask, How would an ancient Jew have understood that prophecy in Isaiah about the fall of Babylon to the Medes described in terms of a collapsing universe, knowing that Media-Persia conquered Babylon long ago? The only justifiable interpretation is that the collapsing universe language is poetic hyperbole, in which the prophet is investing cosmic importance into a local, historical event. Working from a holistic Biblical context, there's no reason to insist that Jesus' prophecy of universal-collapse should be taken literally (or, in this case, a modified 'literally').

    4. Trumpets carried symbolic meaning, ranging from the announcement of a new king to the downfall of a nation. Whether this trumpet blast is literal or not (I'm not opinionated either way), the context (calling from one end of heaven to the other) is an echo of Yahweh's words in Deuteronomy, where he promises to call his people out of exile when they are faithful to him and his Covenant; this doesn't even necessarily require a physical gathering of the people, simply the pronouncement that exile is over (and in applying this to the spiritualized exile of Daniel 9, they don't even have to be physically dispersed in order to be called back). That's the meaning here: Jesus is saying there will be an end to exile, that the new exodus is coming to its end, that his people will be united into a single Covenant community.

    None of this precludes a literal second coming; only that Jesus' prophecy in the Olivet Discourse isn't about it.

  7. #82
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Mark,

    It seems like the passage is about the return of Christ, as defined by the opening question by the disciples. Seems pretty clear that the subject at hand - even at the end of Luke's temple discourse - is the Second Coming.
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  8. #83

    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie
    It seems like the passage is about the return of Christ, as defined by the opening question by the disciples.
    How could the disciples have been asking about a 'return' of Jesus if they didn't have any understanding of his death, or resurrection, or ascension? At this point (i.e. prior to his resurrection), the disciples had no concept of him leaving for heaven, let alone returning from there. To claim the disciples were asking about Jesus' second coming is an anachronism.

    They asked him when his parousia would be, his presence as king (which is entirely consistent with their usual thoughts at this point: when is the kingdom, who will sit at his right and left sides, etc.). That's the question he is answering: the judgment of Jerusalem in that generation's lifetime will be the definitive outward sign to the world that Jesus' parousia had come, that he had begun his reign as king. As with the son of man in the vision of Daniel, Jesus will have come on the clouds to God in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the throne.

  9. #84
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I can see that you bolded a couple things in that passage but I'm not exactly sure what point you were trying to make here. Can you clarify that?
    The highlighted segments were from Luke's gospel parallel to add clarification to oft misunderstood verses in Matthew's account. Looking at Luke's account up to verse 24, do you see how Jesus' disciples might have seen everything He said below as applying to their situation and era?

    ============================================
    Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

    5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”


    7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”


    8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore[b] do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”


    10
    Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

    The Destruction of Jerusalem

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  10. #85
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    How could the disciples have been asking about a 'return' of Jesus if they didn't have any understanding of his death, or resurrection, or ascension? At this point (i.e. prior to his resurrection), the disciples had no concept of him leaving for heaven, let alone returning from there. To claim the disciples were asking about Jesus' second coming is an anachronism.

    They asked him when his parousia would be, his presence as king (which is entirely consistent with their usual thoughts at this point: when is the kingdom, who will sit at his right and left sides, etc.). That's the question he is answering: the judgment of Jerusalem in that generation's lifetime will be the definitive outward sign to the world that Jesus' parousia had come, that he had begun his reign as king. As with the son of man in the vision of Daniel, Jesus will have come on the clouds to God in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the throne.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself in your own answer. If the context is defined solely by what they did not understand (your point), then how could Jesus answer them at all?

    In other words, as Matthew is writing his gospel, he is writing it as one who now understands the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. To say that Matthew didn't write from an enlightened perspective on words from Jesus that he previously did not understand would be, in my opinion, overdoing "grammatical / historical". We have to take into account the author's perspective, post-resurrection - not just pre-resurrection.

    And Jesus often spoke to issues that they did not truly understand - without appealing to their "pre-cross" understanding. See: John and James' mother.
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  11. #86

    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie
    You seem to be contradicting yourself in your own answer.
    How? They asked about Jesus' parousia (not a second coming they didn't even know about), so Jesus answered regarding his parousia (not the coming coming). There's no contradiction in that.

    To say that Matthew didn't write from an enlightened perspective
    Not what I said...

  12. #87
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    How? They asked about Jesus' parousia (not a second coming they didn't even know about), so Jesus answered regarding his parousia (not the coming coming). There's no contradiction in that.
    Yes, my point was that Matthew's relaying of Jesus' answer seems to be a bit more "Second Coming" than you are allowing for. Same with Luke.


    Not what I said...
    Yes, but that is what is inferred by your hermeneutic - you are limiting the application of the passage to the pre-cross understanding of the disciples, as if Matthew and Luke were not utilizing the discourse to speak of the Second Coming (which they understood at the time of the writing of their gospels).
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  13. #88
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    Re: Time of trouble

    Parousia, translated as "coming" always refers to Christ's second coming/return to earth.

    The disciples did not always ask the brightest/knowledgable questions...but the questions that the Holy Spirit could use to give opportunity to the Son to teach sound doctrine.

    e.g. Did this man sin....that he was born blind?

  14. #89

    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie
    Yes, but that is what is inferred by your hermeneutic -
    You're inferring from my words something you think I implied. (Though I actually didn't.)

    you are limiting the application of the passage to the pre-cross understanding of the disciples,
    I'm limiting their question to their pre-cross understanding, since that was when they asked it. The actual Discourse and all that is in it (the initial signs, the persecution, the abominable desolation, etc.) I interpret based on multiple factors; the original question is just one of them.

    Hence, no, I did not 'say that Matthew didn't write from an enlightened perspective', nor did I imply it. Please do not put words in my mouth, especially when I've directed denied them.

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    Re: Time of trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    You're inferring from my words something you think I implied. (Though I actually didn't.)
    Ok. Well, then, back to this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie View Post
    Seems pretty clear that the subject at hand - even at the end of Luke's temple discourse - is the Second Coming.
    Post-cross, Matthew and Luke seem to be thinking about the Second Coming. Matthew 25 is about the Second Coming. Matthew 25 is not a separate discourse, but a continuation of the flow of thought related to the actual "Parousia" of Jesus, not the redefinition of "Parousia" you have introduced here.
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

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