1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Do you believe this passage is not about His future second coming?
This passage you quoted from Luke 21 is parallel to Matthew 24:1-22 and Mark 13:1-20. What I feel certain about is that the part about them being persecuted and brought before kings and rulers and so on was a message for the disciples about what would happen to them specifically. As far as nation rising against nation and great earthquakes in various places and so on, I tend to think that is more related to things occurring before His second coming rather than what occurred before 70 AD. If you disagree then please let me know what evidence you have that those things occurred before 70 AD.============================================
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore[b] do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
As for Luke 21:20-24, I believe that is parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 and I do believe that has to do with the destruction of the city and its temple buildings in 70 AD. But I believe what follows that passage relates to things that would occur after 70 AD and up to the day of His future second coming.
Also, Jesus had previously taught them about the end of the age and I believe what He described in His parables about the end of the age in Matthew 13:24-30 (explained in verses 36-43) and Matt 13:47-50 did not occur in 70 AD, so His answer regarding their question about the sign of His coming and the end of the age could not have anything to do with 70 AD.
I sympathise with people who have had enough of over-literalistic interpretation of prophetic scripture. However, in the case of the Olivet discourse I feel that it should be treated as literal. The frank question/answer narrative of Jesus replying to his disciples seems to me to be just that - a frank answer. Yes, some of the Old Testament imagery may have been hyperbole in its original O.T. setting, but even then, it appears (to me anyway) to prefigure something more literal in the distant future.Originally Posted by markedward
You say the Olivet Discourse isn't about the second coming. I cannot agree. 1 Thess 4:16 is about the second coming, and Matt 24:31 mirrors it. 2 Pet 3:10 is about the second coming, and Matt 24:35 mirrors it. I would go further and suggest that Pauls, "According to the Lords own word ..." (1 Thess 4:15) is referencing the Olivet discourse.
As for the trumpet blast, well, some may insist it will be a rams horn. He would have had to be a been one big ram but Ill just say that, whatever it is, it will be loud.
"Your name and renown
is the desire of our hearts."
THE OLIVET DISCOURSE - A Collation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 paraphrased.
1 And as He went forth out of the temple, one of His disciples says to Him, “Master, behold, what manner of goodly stones and what manner of buildings and offerings!”
2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.
3 And as He sat on the mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 “Tell us, when will these things be? and what will be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished, and of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Take heed that no man lead you astray.”
5 “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ/I am He’, and ‘the time is at hand’, and will lead many astray.”
6 “And when you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be not troubled/terrified, it is necessary for these things to come about first; but the end is not yet/immediately.”
7 Then said He to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,”
8 “And there will be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.”
9 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you, and will persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake, for a testimony to them. Then will they deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you.”
11 “But you will be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends, and some of you will they cause to be put to death. And then will many stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake”
16 “And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake.”
15 “And when they lead you to judgement, and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you will say, but whatever will be given you in that hour, that speak, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
10 “Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries will not be able to withstand or to gainsay.”
12 “And many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray, and because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of the many will wax cold.”
17 “But not a hair of your head will perish. In your patient endurance you will win your souls for he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.”
14 “And this gospel of the kingly rule will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then will the end come.”
18 “When therefore you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not in the holy place (let him who reads understand), that is to say, when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.”
19 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house, and let him who is in the field (countryside) not return back to take his cloak.”
20 “For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
21 “But woe to those who are with child and to those who are breast feeding in those days!”
22 And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath,”
23 “For then will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, no, nor ever shall be, for there will be great distress on the land, and wrath to this people.”
24 Then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ’, or, ‘Here’; believe it not. For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. But take heed. Behold, I have told you beforehand.”
25 “If therefore they shall say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness’, go not forth, ‘Behold, he is in the inner chambers’, believe it not.”
26 “For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.”
27 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and on the earth there will be distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows, men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,”
28“And then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
29 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”
30 “Wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”
31 “And He will send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
32 “But when these things begin to come about, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
33 “Now from the fig tree learn her parable. When her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near, even so you also, when you see all these things, know you that He is near ( the Kingly Rule of God is near), even at the doors.”
34 “Truly I say to you, This generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.”
35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
36 “But of that day and hour knows no one, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
37 “Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare, for so will it come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.”
38 “But watch you at every season, making supplication, that you may prevail to escape all these things that will come about, and to stand before the Son of man.”
39 “It is as when a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.”
40 “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether at eventide, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all, Watch.”
41 “And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.”
42 “For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. So shall be the coming of the Son of man.”
43 “Then will two men be in the field, one is taken, and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken through.
44 “Therefore you also be ready, for in an hour that you do not think the Son of man is coming.”
Jesus never leaves the topic of the trials and tribulations the disciples would experience before the ultimate desecration of Jerusalem and the temple. He only interjects His parousia to say not to expect this worldwide event to save them...and they would have to flee Jerusalem and keep their coats handy at all times. He then concludes by saying that ALL THESE THINGS (stones dismantled, persecution, brought before synagogues, kings...i.e. the dispersion of the surviving Jews into all nations; these being unrepeatable events) would happen to his own generation. And it did. But at His second coming, at that day, there will be no need to run, no signs given, the timing unable to be anticipated, a snare not only to residents of Jerusalem and Judea, but to the whole world.
20. BUT PRAY YE THAT YOUR FLIGHT BE NOT IN WINTER,
NEITHER ON THE SABBATH DAY:
The destruction would come, but it was advisable to pray for a
mitigation of the circumstances. Winter's cold would reduce
the possibility of escape and survival. If the flight was on a Sabbath,
Jews were not by tradition to travel over 2000 cubits (nearly a mile)
and they would therefore not get out of the range of danger. The
gates of the city were also closed on the Sabbath preventing escape.
21. FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH
AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD
TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.
The word tribulation means calamity or suffering. Lu.21:24
specifies the nature of this suffering. Josephus uses almost
the very words of the Saviour. "All the calamities says he, which
had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world, were but
small in comparison to those suffered by the Jews.
(Jewish Wars, b.i. preface, p.4)
THEY SHALL FALL BY THE EDGE OF THE SWORD. Lu.21:24
Josephus says that the whole city ran with blood and that during
the siege not fewer than eleven hundred thousand perished.
In all, one million, three hundred and fifty thousand were put to
death by the Romans. So many were crucified that they ran out
of crosses for the bodies. So terrible was their imprecation
fulfilled - His blood be on us and our children.
Da.12:1 time of trouble at end as never before
Mt.21:43 kingdom taken away Mat 23:35-58
22. AND EXCEPT THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED,
THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S
SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED.
Comment: If the calamities of the siege, persecution and war
did not come to an abrupt end, all the inhabitants of Judea,
including believers who had escaped to other regions would be
destroyed. But for the sake of the elect. Elect = those chosen to
salvation through sanctification of spirit and belief in the truth.
(I Peter 1:2) those days leading to the fall of Jerusalem would
be reduced. Titus himself, Josephus tells us, contrary to his
original intention, pressed the siege and took the city by storm
shortening the the time originally planned to reduce the city by
continuing the famine.
23. THEN IF ANY MAN SHALL SAY UNTO YOU, LO HERE
IS CHRIST, OR THERE; BELIEVE IT NOT.
Many Jews expected the Messiah to deliver them from Roman
oppression and were open to following claims of would-be
Messiahs during the siege. Jesus warns not to be hood-winked by
plausible pretensions. Numerous false Messiahs/ prophets
pretended to declare the way of deliverance and show bogus
miraculous powers who Josephus identified as magicians and
24. FOR THERE SHALL ARISE FALSE CHRISTS, AND
FALSE PROPHETS, AND WONDERS; INSOMUCH THAT, IF
IT WERE POSSIBLE, THEY SHALL DECEIVE THE VERY
Josephus records a number of extraordinary signs and
wonders performed by false prophets. The pretended miracles
would resemble true miracles but they would not lead astray those
who were grounded in the belief that Jesus was Messiah. Despite
their lies and the peoples longings, there would be no personal
coming during siege
25. BEHOLD I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE.
This information was given in advance to prepare the saints for
what was to come
26. WHEREFORE IF THEY SHALL SAY UNTO YOU,
BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT; GO NOT FORTH:
BEHOLD; HE IS IN THE SECRET CHAMBERS; BELIEVE IT NOT.
Jews expected the Messiah to come suddenly from some
unexpected quarter to deliver from Roman onslaught. Don't
follow these pretenders (go not forth) to these desert places.
The Messiah will not be holding up in some concealed house
or chamber. Christians were not to expect a hidden personal
visitation (coming/parousia) during the siege
27.FOR AS THE LIGHTENING COMETH OUT OF THE EAST,
AND SHINETH EVEN UNTO THE WEST; SO SHALL ALSO
THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE.
This verse stands in contrast to the preceding verses. It contrasts
Christ's Second Coming with His coming in judgment upon
Jerusalem. The disciples were not to expect the parousia of Christ
to deliver Israel during these difficulties. The personal second
coming(parousia) would not occur in secret places like deserts or
houses,. No one would need to be informed when this coming
occurred. The second coming (parousia) would be a visible and
worldwide event of great magnitude. Jesus here clarifies the
distinction between his coming in judgment on Jerusalem at the
close of the Jewish age and his second personal coming at the end
of the gospel age.
28. FOR WHERESOEVER THE CARCASS IS, THERE WILL
THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER.
The words are proverbial. Vultures and eagles ascertain where the
dead body is and come around it to devour. A picture of the
Roman army, Jerusalem resembling the dead corpse Hos.8:1
Hab.1:8 The Jewish nation was morally, spiritually, and judicially
dead. Jerusalem was like a dead putrid corpse once Jesus had
pronounced the death sentence Mat 23:38 "Your house is left to
you desolate.." For implies a reason for what is said and attests to
the certainty that the Son of man would come to destroy the city.
29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:
Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.
QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and
stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?
WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.
Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of
Idumea, Isaiah writes:
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
shall be rolled together as a scroll...
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come
down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64
OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO
Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)
Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.
After reading your other post it appears that you believe only verse 27 is a parenthetical verse applying to His future second coming and the rest up until verse 34 apply to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. I disagree. I see no basis for disassociating the mention of His parousia in verse 27 with what He describes in verses 28-31.
You agree that Matt 25:1-13 has to do with His future second coming, right? So, why would Matt 24:29-31 not be speaking of the same event as Matt 25:1-13? The Greek word translated as "coming" in Matt 24:30 is erchomai. That is the same Greek word used here (see verses 10 and 13):
Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Notice that Jesus said "ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (erchomai). If we use scripture to interpret scripture we should see that in Matt 24:36 He was referring to His coming (erchomai) that He referred to in verse 30 and therefore verse 30 has to be referring to His future second coming and not a supposed coming that occurred in 70 AD. I do not believe that was occurred in 70 AD can be referred to as a coming of the Son of man. I understand that it was God's wrath that came down upon Jerusalem at that time using the Roman armies and I suppose you could say that was a coming in judgment of sorts, but it was not the coming of the Son of man in any sense, IMO.
Hey John 8:32, Where do you find a 3 ½ year tribulation ???
Hey Johnny, Where do you find a 7 year tribulation ???
The only place I can find that says the amount of time in a tribulation is –
Rev 2:10 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
To determine the 3-1/2 years one must put together some scriptures and read between the lines...
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 - 1260 = 30
Time to set up the work of two witnessess in Jerusalem
There are more scriptures to add, but these give the bare bones of it.
Obviously there is some speculation here and should bring out the flame throwers.
<<You're a bit hard to follow so let me see if I have this straight. Are you saying that you see Matt 24:27-31 as a parenthetical section that describes the worldwide event of His future second coming and then He switches gears and comes back to talking about the local event that would occur in Jerusalem in verse 32, which would mean that you don't see Matt 24:27-31 as being included in the reference to "all these things" in verse 34?>>
Boy, and I thought I was a clear communicator. Well there goes that theory.
Verse 27 alone is the interjection into the "Jerusalem's destruction" discourse which continues right up to and including verse 35. In the vernacular, Jesus interjects, "Hey guys, don't expect my parousia during the siege and its tribulations; that's a totally different cup of tea."
Try reading the commentary I posted (post 73) on verses 20 - 30 for a clearer picture of what I'm trying to communicate.
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