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Thread: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

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    The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Let's look at these a little closer then, starting with the war in Rev 20.

    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    The way it looks to me, each and everyone one of them met their fate by being devoured by fire out of heaven. Now let's look at the war in ch 19.

    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

    The first thing to note, the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. These 2 then, they don't fit the fates of those in ch 20, because it says fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. But these in ch 19 are seen being cast into a LOF while still alive, thus the fire out of heaven couldn't have devoured them.

    Now lets look at the remnant in ch 19.

    And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Doesn't look like they got devoured by fire from God out of heaven, unless one can show that the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, that this is meaning literal fire that devours. Plus it says..and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I doubt that fowls would be feasting on burning flesh. The way some get around that, they conclude this is not to be understood literally. But I conclude otherwise, since there would be no reason not to.

    So based on this little bit alone, I would conclude different wars.

  2. #2

    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post

    Doesn't look like they got devoured by fire from God out of heaven, unless one can show that the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, that this is meaning literal fire that devours. Plus it says..and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I doubt that fowls would be feasting on burning flesh. The way some get around that, they conclude this is not to be understood literally. But I conclude otherwise, since there would be no reason not to.

    So based on this little bit alone, I would conclude different wars.
    I don't understand. Do you are not believe that the fowls literally will eat flesh? At first you said you doubt it, but then say you conclude otherwise

    I'm one that would read both chapters in a figurative sence.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    I don't understand. Do you are not believe that the fowls literally will eat flesh? At first you said you doubt it, but then say you conclude otherwise

    I'm one that would read both chapters in a figurative sence.


    But you missed my point then. If Rev 20 is the same event as Rev 19, which means the remnant get devoured by fire from God out of heaven, then it seems nonsensical to think fowls would be feasting on burning flesh. So the point would be, no fire from heaven devouring them, since the fowls are seen feasting on their flesh. So yes, I believe the feasting on their flesh after they are dead is to be understood literally.But they wouldn't be feasting on burning flesh, thus Rev 20 isn't the same event as Rev 19. Now of course if you interpret it figurative as you do, then I guess it can mean anything anyone wants it to mean. But to be fair, if you can show some Scriptures where fowls are seen feasting on flesh, but that it's obvious that it's not to be understood literally, then I may rethink my stance on this. But just telling me it is figurative without actually proving it, well you'll have to do better than that.

  4. #4

    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But you missed my point then. If Rev 20 is the same event as Rev 19, which means the remnant get devoured by fire from God out of heaven, then it seems nonsensical to think fowls would be feasting on burning flesh. So the point would be, no fire from heaven devouring them, since the fowls are seen feasting on their flesh. So yes, I believe the feasting on their flesh after they are dead is to be understood literally.But they wouldn't be feasting on burning flesh, thus Rev 20 isn't the same event as Rev 19. Now of course if you interpret it figurative as you do, then I guess it can mean anything anyone wants it to mean. But to be fair, if you can show some Scriptures where fowls are seen feasting on flesh, but that it's obvious that it's not to be understood literally, then I may rethink my stance on this. But just telling me it is figurative without actually proving it, well you'll have to do better than that.
    What I see John revealing to his reader is from three prespectives. One is from the prespective of the Whore which has been destoryed (Rev.19:1-10) The second prespective is from the Beast and False Prophet in which a battle happens and they are defeated (Rev.19:11-21) Then a third prespective is from the Devil and those that gather with him are defeated (Rev. 20:7-10)

    To me each of theses prespectives are referring to the same battle just from different points of views with different symbols.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    What I see John revealing to his reader is from three prespectives. One is from the prespective of the Whore which has been destoryed (Rev.19:1-10) The second prespective is from the Beast and False Prophet in which a battle happens and they are defeated (Rev.19:11-21) Then a third prespective is from the Devil and those that gather with him are defeated (Rev. 20:7-10)

    To me each of theses prespectives are referring to the same battle just from different points of views with different symbols.


    Beckrl. that's interesting, the 3 perspectives. I'll consider that and ponder it.


    Since there is a period of 1000 years involved, then I would think that you should be able to pinpoint in the book of Revelation when that period begins. I conclude that it begins in ch 19 with the return of Christ. After all, if Christ is seen returning here, then it makes sense that there would be a resurrection, and that there would be a reigning with Him. So where in the book of Revelation can you pinpoint the beginning of this 1000 years? No need to go outside of the book to try and prove this. I would think the answer can be found in the book of Revelation itself, not that it can't be found elsewhere. But I'm not concerned about elsewhere for now, I'd like to see it in the book of Revelation since I'm assuming you would disagree with me that it begins when Christ returns in ch 19.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Greetings

    John seems to have Ezek 38-39 in mind.
    In Rev 19:17-18 it mentions the great supper of God, as does Ezek 39 in regard to gog and magog.
    So i would think its the same war in Rev 20.
    Rev 16 at the 7th bowl Is also about the same war.
    Notice that in all these scriptures---they are gathered together unto the war.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Just for the fun of it, let's look at Genesis 19, in order to illustrate a point..

    Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
    13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

    Genesis 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
    16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
    17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

    Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
    26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
    27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
    28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.


    The reason I'm bringing this up is because here too we see folks getting rained on by fire from God out of heaven. How many of the folks do you think would have survived, and then be captured, to then be cast into a LOF like shown in Rev 19? I'm guessing no survivors here in this Genesis 19 account. Clearly the fire raining out of heaven got every last one of them, with no one left alive to tell about it, I mean those that would have been in those cities at the time. This then shows when God rains fire down from heaven on you, He's going to get you, and you're not going to escape. IMO, the scene in Rev 20 is identical to the scene in Genesis 19, except a different time, a different place, and different people. So this should tell us that in Rev 20 that there would be no survivors once the fire has devoured them.

    But that's not what we see at all in ch 19. No fire devoured them from God out of heaven, like it devoured them in Genesis 19. The fact that the beast and false prophet are captured, then cast alive into a LOF, that alone proves they weren't devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Plus what happens to the remnant at the time. Neither were they devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Greetings

    John seems to have Ezek 38-39 in mind.
    In Rev 19:17-18 it mentions the great supper of God, as does Ezek 39 in regard to gog and magog.
    So i would think its the same war in Rev 20.
    Rev 16 at the 7th bowl Is also about the same war.
    Notice that in all these scriptures---they are gathered together unto the war.


    I agree that he would definitely have Ez 39 in mind. But I'm not convinced he would have Ez 38 in mind as well. IOW, even tho I don't have it quite ironed out, Ez 39 fits Rev 19. Ez 38 fits Rev 20, meaning that these are 2 different prophecies and not in chronological order with Rev 19 and 20. I'm not dogmatic about that tho, since I can't exactly prove it at this point.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I agree that he would definitely have Ez 39 in mind. But I'm not convinced he would have Ez 38 in mind as well. IOW, even tho I don't have it quite ironed out, Ez 39 fits Rev 19. Ez 38 fits Rev 20, meaning that these are 2 different prophecies and not in chronological order with Rev 19 and 20. I'm not dogmatic about that tho, since I can't exactly prove it at this point.
    divaD,

    The appropriate phrase in all of this is provided below (in bold):

    Rev. 16
    13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
    14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
    15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
    16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
    Yep.

    Now, how many of these "gatherings" are there? After all, it is a gathering for "the war" of the great day of God and so on.

    And also, how can "the war" be two wars--that's not good grammar at all, yes?

    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I agree that he would definitely have Ez 39 in mind. But I'm not convinced he would have Ez 38 in mind as well. IOW, even tho I don't have it quite ironed out, Ez 39 fits Rev 19. Ez 38 fits Rev 20, meaning that these are 2 different prophecies and not in chronological order with Rev 19 and 20. I'm not dogmatic about that tho, since I can't exactly prove it at this point.
    Welcome to the club
    As far as i can tell both Ez 38 -39 are about the same war of Gog Magog. 39 is just a recapitulation of 38. I think John is doing the same in Chap 20-of chap 19....and chap 16.
    God bless

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    Yep.

    Now, how many of these "gatherings" are there? After all, it is a gathering for "the war" of the great day of God and so on.

    And also, how can "the war" be two wars--that's not good grammar at all, yes?

    Yes, also the Chp 20 gathering is like the sands of the seashore.
    If there are 2 wars, then it would seem that the first one --chap 19 --would warrant moreso this kind of description

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Let's look at these a little closer then, starting with the war in Rev 20.

    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    The way it looks to me, each and everyone one of them met their fate by being devoured by fire out of heaven. Now let's look at the war in ch 19.

    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

    The first thing to note, the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. These 2 then, they don't fit the fates of those in ch 20, because it says fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. But these in ch 19 are seen being cast into a LOF while still alive, thus the fire out of heaven couldn't have devoured them.

    Now lets look at the remnant in ch 19.

    And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Doesn't look like they got devoured by fire from God out of heaven, unless one can show that the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth, that this is meaning literal fire that devours. Plus it says..and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I doubt that fowls would be feasting on burning flesh. The way some get around that, they conclude this is not to be understood literally. But I conclude otherwise, since there would be no reason not to.

    So based on this little bit alone, I would conclude different wars.
    If one believes the wars are different then this means this world gets devoured by fire twice? Are there two battles culminating in the end of this world twice?

    The fire coming down from God out from heaven..... is this not Christ's return?

  13. #13

    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Beckrl. that's interesting, the 3 perspectives. I'll consider that and ponder it.


    Since there is a period of 1000 years involved, then I would think that you should be able to pinpoint in the book of Revelation when that period begins. I conclude that it begins in ch 19 with the return of Christ. After all, if Christ is seen returning here, then it makes sense that there would be a resurrection, and that there would be a reigning with Him. So where in the book of Revelation can you pinpoint the beginning of this 1000 years? No need to go outside of the book to try and prove this. I would think the answer can be found in the book of Revelation itself, not that it can't be found elsewhere. But I'm not concerned about elsewhere for now, I'd like to see it in the book of Revelation since I'm assuming you would disagree with me that it begins when Christ returns in ch 19.
    John in his third prespective of the Devil begun with seeing the Devil being chained and bound for the duration of a thousand years. In that same span of the thousand year Christ has his reign. I would interpert this vision as the gospel being preached to the nations of which the Devil then has no more ability to deceive for the truth has become as a light unto an darken world.

    That said, I would conclude that the thousand years mentioned by John here repersents the speading of the gospel that brings about life when they have received the truth. It isn't until the ending of this time that the Devil is loosed to once again deceive the nations for a little season.

    In the context of all three prespectives and of the final battle it remains the clearest of the first presepective of the Whore which is in relationship to those that reject the saviour Jesus and loves another. John described the Whore as Babylon becasue of her great fornication of the nation of Israel. In his continued description of that city he points to that the beast of the earth commanded that all should worship the beast of the sea. So clearly John has described to his reader that of a city that has killed his saviour and has committed fornication of going after other gods. That city was Jerusalem which killed his saviour and committed fornications by worshipping other gods. So collectively the Whore can be idenfied as the apostate of Israel with it priests, elders and rulers and that the Whore sat on the Beast as the Roman goverment to implement it's power over the people.

    Therefore John visions would have the death of the Whore (Rev. 19:1-9) as one that ends the battle. That same battle that John saw from the prespective of the beast and false prophet that has them defeated(Rev. 19:11-21), likewise of the Devil. (Rev.20:7-10).

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post

    And also, how can "the war" be two wars--that's not good grammar at all, yes?

    It's good grammar if it is not the same war in both cases. Example...WW1..WW2. Two wars. But at the time of each, only one war.

    Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


    When you look at these like this, it certainly appears to be the same war..I'll give you that. But like I pointed out in the OP, the fates in Rev 20 differ from the fates in ch 19. You would have to show how every last one of them in ch 19 were devoured by fire, just as it states in ch 20, if these are the same war.

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    Re: The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

    I also would like to add in support that the chapter 19 and 20 are the same battle is the the phrase in chapter 20........"and they came out on the breadth of the earth". When one examines this phrase we see that this army "comes up from below" to be able to come up on the breadth of the earth. We see this in the 5th trumpet.

    Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
    Re 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    Re 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    Re 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    Re 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    Re 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
    Re 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
    Re 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
    Re 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    Re 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    Re 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
    Re 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    Re 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    Re 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

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