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  1. #1
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    Time of trouble

    I realize there have been an endless amount of debates over Matthew 24 as it relates to a futuristic or preterist interpretation. Especially, as it relates to the "Great Tribulation" passage in verse 21, be it 70AD or a future time period...

    I would like to get the thoughts of those that hold to a partial preterist position ... Specifically this part

    [21] "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Mat 24:21 NKJV

    And I would like to look at it in light of this verse in Daniel 12...

    [1] ...And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. - Dan 12:1-2 NKJV

    This passage in Daniel seems to be the reference that Jesus is alluding to... So, from what I understand there are three primary views to this passage in Daniel from a preterist standpoint. If there are others, feel free to add..

    1. Correlates to Antiochus Epiphanes
    2. Correlates to Roman Invasion of 70AD
    3. Correlates to Satan's little season of release

    For those that believe #1 that Daniel 12 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, then why did Jesus allude to the same scripture as a future event? Also why is Daniel 12:1 said to take place in connection with the resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2).

    For those that hold to #2 as a Roman view. And do you believe that Jesus was referencing the same time period as Daniel? If so, how does Daniel's reference to the resurrection of the dead fit with a 70 AD context?

    For those that hold to #3 Daniel 12 being about Satan's little season of release but Matt 24 being about 70AD, how could there be a "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation" in the future if Jesus said there would never be a tribulation greater beyond 70 AD ("nor shall ever be").

    Thoughts...

  2. #2

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    I have posted some comments on this thread that might also address this issue.

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...hen-He-Returns

  3. #3
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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I have posted some comments on this thread that might also address this issue.

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...hen-He-Returns
    Hey Johnny,

    I read your comments and I didn't see anything that was addressing the questions at hand... If your point is that the Great Tribulation is yet future, then I agree with you...

    But the questions I asked were for those that see Matt 24:21 as a past fulfillment in 70AD. Since Jesus is pointing to Daniel 12:1 as the same event, how does this possible? Daniel 12 identifies the timing of the "Time of Trouble" as happening and concluding with the Resurrection of the Dead. The was no Resurrection in 70AD... Thus, the Time of Trouble and Great Tribulation should be both seen as a future event... I am interested in how a Preterist answers this question because most see the Great Tribulation as a historic event...

    Make sense?

  4. #4

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Hey Johnny,

    I read your comments and I didn't see anything that was addressing the questions at hand... If your point is that the Great Tribulation is yet future, then I agree with you...

    But the questions I asked were for those that see Matt 24:21 as a past fulfillment in 70AD. Since Jesus is pointing to Daniel 12:1 as the same event, how does this possible? Daniel 12 identifies the timing of the "Time of Trouble" as happening and concluding with the Resurrection of the Dead. The was no Resurrection in 70AD... Thus, the Time of Trouble and Great Tribulation should be both seen as a future event... I am interested in how a Preterist answers this question because most see the Great Tribulation as a historic event...

    Make sense?
    I agree with you that the (7 year) tribulation and time of trouble is yet to come, and that will be after the rapture.

  5. #5

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I agree with you that the (7 year) tribulation and time of trouble is yet to come, and that will be after the rapture.
    Trib is 3-1/2 and there is no rapture.

  6. #6

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    Trib is 3-1/2 and there is no rapture.
    So we disagree. Study the Jewish wedding. You will be surpised at the outcome. Follow this link for detailed study.

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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I agree with you that the (7 year) tribulation and time of trouble is yet to come, and that will be after the rapture.
    The only problem with your above response is I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation or a pre trib rapture... I would say a 3 1/2 year tribulation and a post trib rapture...

    Blessings

  8. #8

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I realize there have been an endless amount of debates over Matthew 24 as it relates to a futuristic or preterist interpretation. Especially, as it relates to the "Great Tribulation" passage in verse 21, be it 70AD or a future time period...

    I would like to get the thoughts of those that hold to a partial preterist position ... Specifically this part

    [21] "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Mat 24:21 NKJV

    And I would like to look at it in light of this verse in Daniel 12...

    [1] ...And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. - Dan 12:1-2 NKJV

    This passage in Daniel seems to be the reference that Jesus is alluding to... So, from what I understand there are three primary views to this passage in Daniel from a preterist standpoint. If there are others, feel free to add..

    1. Correlates to Antiochus Epiphanes
    2. Correlates to Roman Invasion of 70AD
    3. Correlates to Satan's little season of release

    For those that believe #1 that Daniel 12 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, then why did Jesus allude to the same scripture as a future event? Also why is Daniel 12:1 said to take place in connection with the resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2).

    For those that hold to #2 as a Roman view. And do you believe that Jesus was referencing the same time period as Daniel? If so, how does Daniel's reference to the resurrection of the dead fit with a 70 AD context?

    For those that hold to #3 Daniel 12 being about Satan's little season of release but Matt 24 being about 70AD, how could there be a "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation" in the future if Jesus said there would never be a tribulation greater beyond 70 AD ("nor shall ever be").

    Thoughts...
    4) The time of trouble occurs at the end of man's age (6000 years). Satan's little season of release occurs at the end of the Millenium (6001 to 7000), somewhere close to year 7000.

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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    4) The time of trouble occurs at the end of man's age (6000 years). Satan's little season of release occurs at the end of the Millenium (6001 to 7000), somewhere close to year 7000.
    Hey John 8:32

    Are you saying this is what you believe or is this just another interpretation who have heard of?

    According to this view your presenting, Satan's little season would be at the end, yet still within the 1,000 years?
    How do you (or those that hold to this view) interpret this verse?

    [7] Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison - Rev 20:7 NKJV

    This verse tells us that Satan is not released until the 1,000 years are over, not at the very end of the 1,000 years...

    I would also be interested to know what is the event that is the catalyst for the beginning of the 1,000 years according to this view? Amills believe it is the resurrection, PreMills believe it is the 2nd Coming. According to this view what happened in year 6000 that started the Millennium?

  10. #10

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Hey John 8:32

    Are you saying this is what you believe or is this just another interpretation who have heard of?

    According to this view your presenting, Satan's little season would be at the end, yet still within the 1,000 years?
    How do you (or those that hold to this view) interpret this verse?

    [7] Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison - Rev 20:7 NKJV

    This verse tells us that Satan is not released until the 1,000 years are over, not at the very end of the 1,000 years...

    I would also be interested to know what is the event that is the catalyst for the beginning of the 1,000 years according to this view? Amills believe it is the resurrection, PreMills believe it is the 2nd Coming. According to this view what happened in year 6000 that started the Millennium?
    There are some problems in my mind with Dan 12:2 and #3. I am referring to the fact that there are two separate resurrections mentioned in Dan 12:2 separated by 1000 yrs. Those resurrected to everlasting life...

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    There is no one in the first resurrection subject to the second death. The resurrection of those to shame and contempt, to the second death occurs after (at the end of to me means after it is over) the 1000 yrs...

    The Devil is loosed for a short season then the White Throne Judgment, then finally we come to...

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Notice that in this resurrection no books are opened except the book of life? Notice in the White Throne Judgment...

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    The books in this case is the Bible. Notice that they are not opened in the third resurrection of vs 13-15. These are those Daniel and Christ...

    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Christ even speaks of these as two resurrections with separate names. So, unless I am misunderstanding what you posted, Satan is released in the end of or after (to me they mean the same) the millenium, but prior to the 100 yr Great White Throne Judgment and the third resurrection to damnation.

  11. #11
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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    4) The time of trouble occurs at the end of man's age (6000 years). Satan's little season of release occurs at the end of the Millenium (6001 to 7000), somewhere close to year 7000.
    How does your account of years being counted?

    I understand this year to be 6016. Does this mean we are in your timeframe?

  12. #12

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Protective Angel View Post
    How does your account of years being counted?

    I understand this year to be 6016. Does this mean we are in your timeframe?
    No, and how can we determine the year? I am speaking in terms of approximately 6000 years alloted to man to work and then the 1000 year Sabbath of rest in which Christ rules the earth, the Millenium. I don't pretend to know the exact day or year.

    As far as 6016, according to who?

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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    No, and how can we determine the year? I am speaking in terms of approximately 6000 years alloted to man to work and then the 1000 year Sabbath of rest in which Christ rules the earth, the Millenium. I don't pretend to know the exact day or year.

    As far as 6016, according to who?
    No problem John.

    I'm still learning the Bible myself.

    Some have said that world is 6016 years old and use the Bible generations to calulate the earths age. That's where I first heard it.

    I wasn't trying to say anyone was saying the year. I was just curious. Thanks

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    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Mat 24:21 NKJV

    ...And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. - Dan 12:1-2 NKJV

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    ...from what I understand there are three primary views to this passage in Daniel from a preterist standpoint. If there are others, feel free to add..

    1. Correlates to Antiochus Epiphanes
    2. Correlates to Roman Invasion of 70AD
    3. Correlates to Satan's little season of release
    As best as I understand #1 and #2 are the most common part-pret views and #3 the Amil view.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    For those that hold to #3 Daniel 12 being about Satan's little season of release but Matt 24 being about 70AD, how could there be a "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation" in the future if Jesus said there would never be a tribulation greater beyond 70 AD ("nor shall ever be").
    This is my position, so I'll try to answer your question. I notice that prophecy is dynamic (being relevant to times wider than the initial fulfillment.) Sometimes a prophecy fulfills progressively with an early then a greater fulfillment, and I believe that is the case here. Matthew 24 certainly predicts AD70, but it also prefigures a much greater judgement in the future.

    The Amill "little season" is exactly the same event as the Premil "Great tribulation."

    Cyber
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  15. #15

    Re: TIME OF TROUBLE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    [21] "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Mat 24:21 NKJV

    And I would like to look at it in light of this verse in Daniel 12...
    Phrases along the lines of 'not since' and 'nor ever again' is typical hyperbolic language used by the prophets. Compare...

    ... Exodus 11.6: God's judgment upon Egypt during the exodus;
    ... Isaiah 7.17: God's judgment upon Israel and Syria (and to a lesser degree, Judah), through Assyria;
    ... Joel 2.2: God's judgment upon Judah, through Babylon;
    ... Ezekiel 16.16: Jerusalem's sinfulness, anticipating the need for God's judgment, through Babylon.

    Each prophet is investing universal significance into localized, historical events that are now long since past. Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 are doing the same thing:

    ... Daniel 12.1: The persecution suffered by Antiochus IV Epiphanes;
    ... Matthew 24.21: God's judgment upon Judea, through Rome.

    For those that believe #1 that Daniel 12 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, then why did Jesus allude to the same scripture as a future event?
    Jesus' original hearers (his Jewish disciples) and Matthew's original readers (traditionally claimed to be a primarily Jewish audience) would have been familiar with the book of 1 Maccabees. This book records the events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes' desecration of the temple in Jerusalem, and it intentionally echoes the book of Daniel in many places to show the readers how Daniel's visions were fulfilled in those events. It even outright calls Antiochus IV Epiphanes' desecration of the temple 'the abomination of desolation' in 1 Maccabees 1.54 (or, depending on which translation you can find, 'the awful horror' or the 'desolating sacrilege', or something like that).

    The reason I bring this up is because Jesus, knowing his Jewish disciples would be familiar with 1 Maccabees, actually paraphrases a part of it. By pointing his listeners to 1 Maccabees in the context of the 'abomination of desolation' spoken of by Daniel, Jesus is confirming that Maccabees has recorded the fulfillment of Daniel's visions, and as such, Jesus' listeners can understand that there will be a new 'abomination of desolation'.

    Jesus is making a typological connection between the horrific event of the past carried out by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and a future event that will be terribly similar.

    Also why is Daniel 12:1 said to take place in connection with the resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2).
    In the Torah, we are told how God made the Covenant with Israel that, when faithful, he would permit them to dwell in the Land he had promised to Abraham. But if the people broke the Covenant Law, God would exile them from the Land. To dwell in the Land was analogized to life, but exile from the Land was analogized to death (Deuteronomy 30.15). Hence... to be exiled and then brought back was a return to life... resurrection. Dwelling in the Land was life, exile from the Land was death, and restoration from exile was resurrection.

    Isaiah 26.19 uses the metaphor of resurrection for Israel's restoration. Ezekiel 37 does the same thing, looking specifically to the return from the Babylonian exile.

    Daniel 12 is doing the same thing. We read in chapter 9 how Daniel had been studying the seventy-year exile from the Land prophesied by Jeremiah, and so was praying to God that this exile would come to completion. In response, the heavenly messenger Gabriel describes to Daniel the restoration of Jerusalem and the temple upon return from Babylon after the seventy years, but despite returning from the Land, the people are still in a type of exile, one that will last for seven times as long. The penultimate event of this spiritual exile will be the temple's desolation by an abomination, but at the last the temple will be restored and anointed, and the spiritual exile will end.

    These events (each of the prophetic visions found in the book of Daniel, actually) are the desolation of the temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and its subsequent cleansing and restoration, when God threw the oppressors off of Israel, after the people had been tread upon for centuries since the original exile to Babylon. This is what Daniel 12.1-3 is describing: the spiritual exile is coming to its end just as Antiochus IV Epiphanes persecutes the saints, desolates the temple, but is ultimately thrown off, and the nation is finally restored / resurrected from its spiritual exile / death.

    Jesus, knowing that these visions were fulfilled in the past, and thus have deep cultural meaning for the Jewish people of his own day and age, takes the symbols from Daniel's visions and reapplies them to new things. In Daniel 7 the 'son of man' was a symbol for the saints of Israel being oppressed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but ultimately the saints of Israel are vindicated by God over their beastly oppressor, the one that had committed the abominable desolation.

    Jesus reapplies these symbols to himself for the typological connections: as its Messiah, Jesus is the embodiment of the nation of Israel, Jesus (and his followers with him) are the true 'son of man'. But the corrupted Jerusalem has become the beastly oppressor, crucifying its king and killing the prophets and saints, and so within that very generation, God vindicated Jesus (and his people) by overthrowing the Jerusalem through​ the abominable desolation.

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