Time of trouble

[asterisktom]

For those that hold to #2 as a Roman view. And do you believe that Jesus was referencing the same time period as Daniel? If so, how does Daniel's reference to the resurrection of the dead fit with a 70 AD context?

Interesting topic. I also hold to the #2 fulfillment. Though I believe that Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 are clearly referring to the same event (the times of AD 70) I believe it can be made even clearer by bringing in other passages like in Isaiah. That book keeps returning to descriptions of the times of the manifestation of the New Covenant. It actually has much to say about the same time as that of Daniel 12 and Matt. 24.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

I believe that this great prince, Michael, "Who is like God?" is actually Christ. (I was first convinced of this view when I read of it in Matthew Henry's Commentary - the unabridged one.) Anyhow, the time of the other details in Daniel 12 can only have been fulfilled at one period, AD 70. It was a a time of unparalleled calamity, which is what that time was.

But - and I resisted this for a long time - we also have the explicit coupling of this time with the resurrection. Three options come to mind:
1. There are two fulfillments, two unparalleled times of calamity for God's people.
2. This is all still future. Yet there are several problems, Biblically, with this. For starters Christ referred to this passage as something that will happen very soon. By studying the NT cross-references we can see that these events will happen in the lifetime of many of His hearers.
3.This is all AD 70. This is where I finally put my flag down - after being Pre-trib/Pre-wrath for decades and Amill for several years.

So what about the resurrection? Does anyone here reasonably see a stop-the-clock time indicator being Daniel 12:1 and verse 2? I don't. For a long time I assumed it was there. But it is really one event, all under the heading of "in that time". In that time the resurrection happened. This is what the text says. And it cannot be a partial event like what happened in Matthew 27, just a few saints rising from the dead. That cannot be the resurrection. The resurrection of Daniel 12 is universal, saints and sinners.

There are other cross-references that buttress this position, like comparing 1 Cor. 15's "O, Death where is your sting?" with the Isaiah original passage. Also 2nd Corinthian's "veil taken away" with that veil passage in Isaiah. But I don't want to derail this thread away from where the original poster wanted to go.

[Vanderhoven7]

I agree.

The "great tribulation" was fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.

It's absolutely clear from:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(highlighted to show there will be no second fulfillment)

confirmation:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (note: This refers back to Matthew 23 prediction of woe and divine vengeance on Christ's own generation)
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again.

[Vanderhoven7]

I'm not sure how to get back to threads posted on yet. I'm working on it. I thought I'd add this tidbit.

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation.
In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Vanderhoven7]

In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai)in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.


Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.



Jesus gave clear warning to His disciples as to when to flee the Roman onslaught. The unrepeatable plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is described in Luke 21: 21-24

The "Times of the Gentiles": to me indicates the duration of time for the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem underfoot...which was 31/2 years or 42 months as stipulated in Revelation.

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months " Rev.11:2. Exactly the length of the seige and overthrow.


About the disciples second question: What would signal the parousia and when would the world end?

Jesus warned not to expect his parousia, or his second presence during the tribulation associated with 70 AD Don't believe it. The parousia will be dramatic, worldwide & no secret. Mt.24:23-27 Notice how the material in Mt. 24: 36-44, which deals solely with the parousia is in stark contrast with the material in verses 1 - 36.


Matt 24:1-35 .................................... Matt 24: 36 - end
__________ ...................................... __________________

Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple .............. Worldwide: Lu.21:35

Abnormal Times:calamities .....................Normal Times: Marrying, working in fields etc.

Specific signs precede ...........................No Signs Given

Precise Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 ..........Anticipation Impossible 24:44

Run for the hills .................................... No running necessary, taken from beds and mills

[Vanderhoven7]

I realize I'm not giving much time for replies and rebuttals....sorry.

In case someone doesn't get where I'm coming from, let me summarize Matthew 24:1-44 as I understand it:



Jesus has just left the temple for the last time after pronouncing it desolate while predicting great tribulation/vengeance on the then contemporary generation esp. the religious leaders (Mt.23:36). Then He moves to the Mount of Olives with His disciples and tells them that the temple would be utterly destroyed.

His disciples are shocked and ask 1. when this would happen and 2. what would signal his visitation and the end of the age.



As I see it, Jesus answers the first question in verses 1 -34



In verses. 5-14 he tells them that difficult times were ahead for them.

1. False “messiahs” would arise before Jerusalem's destruction
   
   
2. There would be numerous military encounters.
   
   
3. Famines and earthquakes would occur.
   
   
4. There would be intense persecution of believers.
   
   
5. Some would “stumble,” and depart from the faith.
   
   
6. False prophets would be prevalent.
   
   
7. There would be decreasing spirituality on the part of some saints.
   
   
8. Those who endured and remained alive would be delivered from the onslaught.
   
   
9. The gospel would be published far and wide before Jerusalem's fall.
   

Then in verses 15 - 35 He identifies the sign that would alert them to His coming (erchomai) to take vengeance upon Jerusalem' and it's temple and provides the course of action they should take:

He tells them: As soon as you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know its desolation is near. There will be no time to waste, even to get extra clothing. It will be unfortunate for pregnant and nursing mothers; pray that your flight from the city and Judaean villages will not be impeded by winter conditions or on a Sabbath day when the city gates are locked and traveling distance limited. Escape quickly to the hills beyond Judaea because unparallelled and unrepeatable tribulation for Jerusalem and its inhabitants is about to occur. Don't believe the false prophets who tell you that the Messiah is secretly present somewhere, to deliver you; no because my second presence will be evident worldwide.
Immediately, swiftly after the siege and suffering brought about by it; the onslaught and the destruction of the temple and city will occur orchestrated by the Son of man, from heaven. Many shall fall by the sword and those that survive will be shipped off as slaves to gentile lands. Be happy that as a result, because you will be spared destruction and Jewish restraints and persecution will be shattered and the gospel of the kingdom will have free course throughout the world. You are to know the exact timing and when all this is about to take place. All these things will happen within this generation.
Then, as I see it, Jesus answers the second question from verse 36-44
But of that day, (not days) the day of my parousia, knows no man. There will be no signs to warn people; it will come as a total surprise as did the flood in Noah's day. People will be going about there business as usual, it will be normal times; people will be marrying and giving in marriage, working at their jobs There will be no need to flee this event. Two men will be working in the field; one taken, one left behind; two women working at the mill, one taken, one left behind. Be ready at all times since the Son of Man will come when you least expect it. And it will come as a snare upon the whole earth, not just Jerusalem and Judea.

[the rookie]

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

I believe that this great prince, Michael, "Who is like God?" is actually Christ.

Michael is numbered as "one of the chief princes" (10:13); together with the strong angel addressing Daniel, the two of them were having an exceedingly difficult time fighting "the prince of Persia" (10:20-21). Both points seem to mitigate against the idea that "Michael" is "Jesus". We saw Jesus in Daniel 7 approach the Ancient of Days. He is not (and has never been) "one from amongst others"; He stands alone.

Secondly, if Michael is Christ as it relates to His first coming, how do you explain the rest of the passage, specifically 12:1-3, which ascribes the time of unprecedented trouble to the time of the resurrection (v.2) and glorification of the faithful (v.3)?

[the rookie]

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation.

Why are you using the Watchtower as a source to reference your points?

[divaD]

I agree.

The "great tribulation" was fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.

It's absolutely clear from:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(highlighted to show there will be no second fulfillment)

Here's what I see as a problem. Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:. This would be in regards to verse 17 and 18. I would think that a Jew who has converted to Christianity, that they wouldn't be too concerned about leaving the area on the Sabbath day. But an unconverted Jew would. With that in mind, Matt 24 would have to be understood as such.

Matthew 24:15 When ye(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your(THE UNCONVERTED JEWS) flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

So who then is the elect in verse 22? Also, why would unconverted Jews even be reading or heeding anything in Matt 24 in the first place?

[John 8:32]

I agree.

The "great tribulation" was fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.

It's absolutely clear from:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(highlighted to show there will be no second fulfillment)

confirmation:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (note: This refers back to Matthew 23 prediction of woe and divine vengeance on Christ's own generation)
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again.

Just out of curiosity, what secret weapons did they possess that could bring about...

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I've always enjoyed the way James Moffatt rendered this:

"not a soul would be saved alive."

[markedward]

I would think that a Jew who has converted to Christianity, that they wouldn't be too concerned about leaving the area on the Sabbath day.

Two things.

One, early Jewish Christians continued to keep the sabbath. This is self-evident even in a chapter like Acts 15; the Apostles don't require Gentiles to keep the Sabbath, but they speak under the assumption that Gentiles can join Jews in the synagogue (i.e. on the sabbath) to listen to the books of the Law and Prophets being read. Sabbath observance isn't forbidden in Christianity, and early Jewish Christians didn't simply abandon it.

Two, 'Christianity' was not seriously considered to be a new religion for Jews to 'convert' to until a century later. Jews weren't 'converting' from one religion to another; they were simply being called to follow God the right way.

Also, why would unconverted Jews even be reading or heeding anything in Matt 24 in the first place?

Why would unrepentant Jews even be reading or heeding anything in Ezekiel 1-7 in the first place? It's not about being converted or unconverted... it's about being a part of the Covenant family, and risking being cut off because of unrepentant sin.

Jesus is calling his fellow Jews (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, followers of John the baptist, followers of Jesus, etc.) to repentance, to leave behind their sins, to endure in the true faith (and to proclaim it), so they won't be caught up in the tide of God's wrath that is about to come crashing down on the Covenant people for the sins that have heaped as high as heaven.

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi,

Re: Matthew 24:20 John Gill writes


neither on the sabbath day:


"And the reason why our Lord put them on praying, that their flight might not be on the sabbath day, was, because he knew not only that the Jews, who believed not in him, would not suffer them to travel on a sabbath day more than two thousand cubits; which, according to their traditions F11, was a sabbath day's journey; and which would not be sufficient for their flight to put them out of danger; but also, that those that did believe in him, particularly the Jerusalem Jews, would be all of them fond of the law of Moses, and scrupulous of violating any part of it, and especially that of the sabbath; see ( Acts 21:20 ) . And though the Jews did allow, that the sabbath might be violated where life was in danger, and that it was lawful to defend themselves against an enemy on the sabbath day; yet this did not universally obtain; and it was made a question of, after the time of Christ, whether it was lawful to flee from danger on the sabbath day......

Now our Lord's meaning, in putting them on this petition, was, not to prevent the violation of the seventh day sabbath, or on account of the sacredness of it, which he knew would be abolished, and was abolished before this time; but he says this with respect to the opinion of the Jews, and "Judaizing" Christians, who, taking that day to be sacred, and fleeing on it unlawful, would find a difficulty with themselves, and others, to make their escape; otherwise it was as lawful to flee and travel on that day, as in the winter season; though both, for different reasons, incommodious."

Other commentators reflect the same sentiments. Such a prayer for mitigation of circumstances today would have no meaning. Pregnant or not, winter or not, Sabbath or not, the gates of the city of Jerusalem are not barred; Christians could simply drive their warm SUVs to the mountains beyond Judea, whether or not they forgot their coats downstairs while working on their rooftops. ;0)

[John 8:32]

Uhh, where was the seventh day Sabbath abolished?

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi GM


Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here is one possibility, considering the local under 4 month siege. If the calamities of the siege, persecution and war did not come to an abrupt end, all the inhabitants of Judea, including believers who had escaped to other regions would be destroyed. But for the sake of the elect. Elect = those chosen to salvation through sanctification of spirit and belief in the truth. (I Peter 1:2) those days leading to the fall of Jerusalem would be reduced. Titus himself, Josephus tells us, contrary to his original intention, pressed the siege and took the city by storm shortening the the time originally planned to reduce the city by continuing the famine.

Uhh, where was the seventh day Sabbath abolished?

Ah....another topic to consider. Your question kinda serves to negate DivaD's argument however.

[John 8:32]

Uhh, where was the seventh day Sabbath abolished?

Actually, I would rather not open this discussion again and it surely doesn't belong in this thread. My apologies.

[John 8:32]

Hi GM


Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here is one possibility, considering the local under 4 month siege. If the calamities of the siege, persecution and war did not come to an abrupt end, all the inhabitants of Judea, including believers who had escaped to other regions would be destroyed. But for the sake of the elect. Elect = those chosen to salvation through sanctification of spirit and belief in the truth. (I Peter 1:2) those days leading to the fall of Jerusalem would be reduced. Titus himself, Josephus tells us, contrary to his original intention, pressed the siege and took the city by storm shortening the the time originally planned to reduce the city by continuing the famine.

Uhh, where was the seventh day Sabbath abolished?

Ah....another topic to consider. Your question kinda serves to negate DivaD's argument however.

OK, those in Judea, but what about Titus and his army? What about Rome? The scripture says NO flesh, not some flesh.