Women speaking in church 5 - 1 Timothy 2

[Watchman]

This passage seemed to come up much more often than the previous ones in this discussion, so I decided to go ahead and get this part of the discussion rolling. There is more to discuss re:1 Corinthians 14 Women speaking in church, but given that there is little difference of understanding being presented there, we'll go ahead with this one.

1 Timothy 2:1-15Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not withbraided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Before we jump into the study of the last 5 sentences,above, let’s take a look at the immediate context, set by the preceding verses, and a word meaning.First, Paul first urges all to live quiet and peaceable lives. The word, peaceable, translates the Greekword hesuchios. This is the sameword that is translated as silent in the latter part of the passage. Hesuchios does not meansilent…it means tranquil, peaceable.

Second, men are instructed to lift holy hands in prayer. The Jews of that day prayed looking skyward, with hands raised, palms opened upward. It was their custom. Many today lift hands, but it is not a universal thing and is frowned upon, even forbidden, in certain churches. This is not a universal command from Paul, rather, he was simply writing about the cultural customs of the day.

Third, women are instructed regarding modest dress, yet in today’s churches, women wearing expensive finery are very common. The command is not against nice clothing, instead, it is given regarding modesty and simplicity…something that varies from culture to culture.

With these three points in mind, let’s look at the last bit. Women may not teach or have authority over a man, but must be in submission and silence. We’ve already seen a poor translation, above-silence, for the word that means peaceable, tranquil. So there are about 3 possible interpretations:

1) Paul’s words forbid women from teaching a man in public.

2) Paul forbids women in Ephesus from teaching or exercising authority because certain false teachers were taking advantage of the ignorance of some of the Greek women in order to spread false teachings.

3) Paul forbids any wife from teaching her husband in a domineering, non-submissive way that contradicts her role as his complement.

That should be enough to get ye olde conversational ball a rollin'. And since I'm outta time tonight, I'll see y'all tomorrow!

blessings,

Watchman

[Boo]

So many topics like this get run around the yard and beat with sticks, but it never seems to die.

I had to resolve for myself what I can take away as truth on this issue.

I understand that Paul's phrase was about how HE did things. Paul never said "God will not allow a woman to teach."

I have also read about how the gifts of the Holy Spirit is for our use in edifying our family in Christ Jesus. I know of women who have the gift of teachings and preaching. I would think it is pleasing to God that they use those gifts. After all, there are women who accept certain teachings better if they come from other women - those who have a first-hand experience with the subject being taught. I also know very spiritual and talented females who know scriptures quite well, and they have taught me. They even live the lesson for me and their walk has been a testimony of the love of God.

I have chosen to let the evidence speak to me as well as what Paul declared " I will not......"

If the topic is illuminated further on and I come to a different understanding, then I will thank God for it.

[Watchman]

Boo,

You've made an excellent point. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7, clearly showed that everything he wrote was not a command from the Lord. As to spiritual women, one of the very best teachers I've ever met is named Nanci. I sometimes think she knows Him better than anyone alive. She teaches Christ in every conversation. Before she teaches publically, though, she consults her husband for his blessing and cover. Women may have been second-class citizens in Paul's day due to their culture, but that is not God's design!

blessings,

W

[Jemand]

1 Tim. 2:1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10. but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (NASB, 1995)

Paul first urges all to live quiet and peaceable lives. The word, peaceable, translates the Greekword hesuchios.

These things are true.

This is the sameword that is translated as silent in the latter part of thepassage. Hesuchios does not meansilent…it means tranquil, peaceable.

These things are NOT true.

Paul does NOT use in verses 11 and 12 the Greek adjective hesuchios that he used in verse 2; he uses the Greek noun hesuchia meaning the “state of saying nothing or very little, silence” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, third edition, 2000, page 440). Secondly, even the New Revised Standard Version, the translation favored by feminist preachers and teachers, recognizes this fact and gives us the following translation,

1 Tim. 2:11. Let a woman learn in silence with full submission.
12. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

[Watchman]

1 Timothy 2:1-15Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not withbraided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Before we jump into the study of the last 5 sentences,above, let’s take a look at the immediate context, set by the preceding verses, and a word meaning.First, Paul first urges all to live quiet and peaceable lives. The word, peaceable, translates the Greekword hesuchios. This is the same word that is translated as silent in the latter part of the passage. Hesuchios does not mean silent…it means tranquil, peaceable.

These things are NOT true.

Paul does NOT use in verses 11 and 12 the Greek adjective hesuchios that he used in verse 2; he uses the Greek noun hesuchia meaning the “state of saying nothing or very little, silence” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, third edition, 2000, page 440). Secondly, even the New Revised Standard Version, the translation favored by feminist preachers and teachers, recognizes this fact and gives us the following translation,

1 Tim. 2:11. Let a woman learn in silence with full submission.
12. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Hi Jemand,

Thanks for catching my error. I partially agree with your assessment. I did miss that one word is a noun and the other is an adjective; however, there is much more to the issue than just that. I've tried to keep the post short, but it is apparent more background information will need to be supplied. FWIW, I'm not a feminist, nor is this study regarding the promotion of feminism. That suggestion is irrelevant to this topic in this forum. I'm at work, presently, and cannot respond further. More later.

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

Jemand,

Perhaps we can get through this without having to go into more detail than many, if not most, would be willing to read in a forum such as this one. What does state of saying nothing or very little, silence mean to you, in your own words?

Thanks,

W

[Jemand]

Jemand,

Perhaps we can get through this without having to go into more detail than many, if not most, would be willing to read in a forum such as this one. What does state of saying nothing or very little, silence mean to you, in your own words?

Thanks,

W

1 Tim. 2:1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10. but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (NASB, 1995)

The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room). The reason for this state is not cultural, as some modernists and feminists have falsely alleged; the reason for this state is that there is a fundamental difference between men and women. This fundamental difference was present in the Garden, it was present in the first century church, and it is present in every church around the world today in which there are both men and women. That difference is delineated in vv. 12-13 quoted above.

Furthermore, in the writings of Paul (see especially the last three chapters of his Epistle to the Ephesians) we find him teaching that God has established a hierarchy:

God the Father
God the obedient Son
Elders (including pastors)
Deacons
Husbands
Wives
Slaves
Children

In the church, the elders represent God the obedient Son; in the home, the husband represents God the obedient Son. The Church is the Bride of Christ, who is God the obedient Son. Therefore, in both the church and the home, gender is VERY important, and in churches and homes where gender confusion is rampant, homosexuality is unbridled.

For many people, however, Christianity has become a lucrative business, and the truths taught in the Scriptures are all too often ignored for the sake of financial gain. For many other people, the self-asserting ego speaks so loudly that the truths taught in the Scriptures cannot be heard. For yet others, unhealthy and unnatural desires can grow to be so strong as to create the delusion that God is calling one to do that which is expressly forbidden in the Scriptures.

And let us not read this passage so carelessly that we jump to the very wrong conclusion that this forbidding comes merely from the pen of Paul in accord with his personal preferences. Indeed, although Paul and Timothy were close friends and Timothy was very much aware of Paul’s authority as an apostle, in this particular passage Paul explicitly reminds Timothy that he was “appointed a preacher and an apostle…as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” (v. 7). Therefore, the forbidding of women to speak in a Christian assembly in which both men and women are present comes from God through the writings of His apostle to the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul. Moreover, in this passage of Scripture, Paul reminds Timothy that Christ Jesus desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Today, however, modernists and feminists are denying the truth and teaching a lie. We not only have women teaching men in Sunday school classes, we have women preaching and teaching men from the pulpit, in seminars, on “Christian” radio and television broadcasts, etc. Indeed, we actually have lesbian pastors in our pulpits advocating for homosexual “rights.”

[Boo]

Hmmmm, I think we will have to disagree on this one:

And let us not read this passage so carelessly that we jump to the very wrong conclusion that this forbidding comes merely from the pen of Paul in accord with his personal preferences. Indeed, although Paul and Timothy were close friends and Timothy was very much aware of Paul’s authority as an apostle, in this particular passage Paul explicitly reminds Timothy that he was “appointed a preacher and an apostle…as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” (v. 7). Therefore, the forbidding of women to speak in a Christian assembly in which both men and women are present comes from God through the writings of His apostle to the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul. Moreover, in this passage of Scripture, Paul reminds Timothy that Christ Jesus desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul made it clear a couple times in scripture that he would not allow something or that he allows something. When he spoke for God, he did not say "I." Paul had issues to resolve within the gentile churches 2000 years ago. The culture that would accept or not accept things was different than today. God has not changed, but man's culture has. What man is willing to listen to and who they are willing to listen to has changed. We no longer treat women as lower than our sheep.

Jesus changed many things, but back when Paul walked the earth setting up the church among the gentiles, Jesus was still changing the hearts and minds of those people. Those things don't change quickly, but it is still true that; for Jesus, there is no male and female. If women were not to teach or preach, they also would not be given the gifts to do so, would they?

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that all preachers have the gift from God to do so. There are many evil spirits in high places, and it is up to us to discover them and avoid them. What I am saying, that Paul's instructions back then - starting with "I will not" - is meant to tell us that God did not establish that rule. Paul did - for his own reasons in the culture that he had to work with. Otherwise he would have said "God will not allow a woman to teach......"

[Watchman]

Jemand and Boo have pretty well summed the two sides of this disagreement. We cannot put too much emphasis on the culture of the time, yet we cannot fail to take it into regard. We also cannot fail to note that Paul gives his opinion, at times, and at other times writes the Lord's commands. One thing, upon which we haven't touched, is the Gnostic influence of the time. Gnostics believed the woman was the true progenitor because she was enlightened by the serpent in Eden. I'm going to have to refresh my memory about this part, so I can tie it in coherently...at least as coherently as a Texas Aggie can do it!

blessings,

W

[claybevan]

Although this is not the central point of your debate, I often wonder how far away from Eve Adam was when she was being seduced by satan? My guess is that he was within hearing distance and was as intrigued as she, considering he wasn't, I assume, off earning a wage, should he not of been around to do as you suggest and rein her in with all his husbandly authority. I gets tired of listening to the "wasn't my fault " line and that being projected onto the 'women in the church' discussion. I can remember years back when there was a severe shortage of men going into the ministry, God doesn't wait, he uses all those that have a burning in their heart for him and that includes us little women.
Don't forget that the Jewish wife can be a formidable force ( just watch a Jackie Mason sketch for that) maybe that was what Paul was really addressing..and that it should be taken more in context.

[claybevan]

I disagree:
God the Father
God the obedient Son
Elders
Deacons
Husbands
Slaves
Children
cats
Dogs
budgies
goldfish
wives (if they're lucky) and that's only after the bin's been put out!

[Watchman]

Although this is not the central point of your debate, I often wonder how far away from Eve Adam was when she was being seduced by satan? My guess is that he was within hearing distance and was as intrigued as she, considering he wasn't, I assume, off earning a wage, should he not of been around to do as you suggest and rein her in with all his husbandly authority. I gets tired of listening to the "wasn't my fault " line and that being projected onto the 'women in the church' discussion. I can remember years back when there was a severe shortage of men going into the ministry, God doesn't wait, he uses all those that have a burning in their heart for him and that includes us little women.
Don't forget that the Jewish wife can be a formidable force ( just watch a Jackie Mason sketch for that) maybe that was what Paul was really addressing..and that it should be taken more in context.

Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

I think you might just be right!

W

[Watchman]

I disagree:
God the Father
God the obedient Son
Elders
Deacons
Husbands
Slaves
Children
cats
Dogs
budgies
goldfish
wives (if they're lucky) and that's only after the bin's been put out!

Dude! I am soooo tellin' yer wife about this post! Usurping authority is not the same as whoppin' someone upside the head with a skillet! Let us all pray for Clay.

W

[Jemand]

Hmmmm, I think we will have to disagree on this one:



Paul made it clear a couple times in scripture that he would not allow something or that he allows something. When he spoke for God, he did not say "I." Paul had issues to resolve within the gentile churches 2000 years ago. The culture that would accept or not accept things was different than today. God has not changed, but man's culture has. What man is willing to listen to and who they are willing to listen to has changed. We no longer treat women as lower than our sheep.

Jesus changed many things, but back when Paul walked the earth setting up the church among the gentiles, Jesus was still changing the hearts and minds of those people. Those things don't change quickly, but it is still true that; for Jesus, there is no male and female. If women were not to teach or preach, they also would not be given the gifts to do so, would they?

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that all preachers have the gift from God to do so. There are many evil spirits in high places, and it is up to us to discover them and avoid them. What I am saying, that Paul's instructions back then - starting with "I will not" - is meant to tell us that God did not establish that rule. Paul did - for his own reasons in the culture that he had to work with. Otherwise he would have said "God will not allow a woman to teach......"

Jemand and Boo have pretty well summed the two sides of this disagreement. We cannot put too much emphasis on the culture of the time, yet we cannot fail to take it into regard. We also cannot fail to note that Paul gives his opinion, at times, and at other times writes the Lord's commands. One thing, upon which we haven't touched, is the Gnostic influence of the time. Gnostics believed the woman was the true progenitor because she was enlightened by the serpent in Eden. I'm going to have to refresh my memory about this part, so I can tie it in coherently...at least as coherently as a Texas Aggie can do it!

blessings,

W

The argument from “the culture of the time” is the argument of feminists and homosexuals who defy the authority of God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the Apostles of our Lord, and who argue that “today’s culture” has so drastically changed that the teachings of the New Testament are no longer applicable and that their lifestyle is not sinful in “today’s culture.” This argument ignores the fact that in New Testament times there were very diverse cultures and that the teachings of the New Testament were applicable in every one of those cultures. This argument also ignores the fact that since the time of the New Testament, hundreds of diverse cultures have come and gone, and that the teachings of the New Testament were applicable in every one of those cultures. Furthermore, this argument ignores the fact that today we have many more diverse cultures than were present in New Testament times; indeed, there is no such thing as “today’s culture.”

The teachings of Christ Jesus and his Apostles are one body of teachings and constitute the teaching of the New Testament. Jesus appointed twelve men to apostleship (Matt. 10:2), not twelve men and women. When Judas died, he needed to be replaced,

Acts 1:23. So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
24. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
25. to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
26. And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Subsequently, we find in the New Testament one more man appointed to apostleship by the will of God,

1 Cor. 1:1. Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

Who then has the authority to tell us who is allowed to speak in church and who is not? Does a rebellious lesbian pastor have the authority to tell us that women are allowed to speak in church? Does a handsome, well-spoken television preacher have the authority to tell us that women are allowed to speak in church? No, the Apostle Paul has the authority to tell us that women are NOT allowed to speak in church. For 1800 years, neither man nor woman dared to defy the authority of the Apostle Paul—but today, the authority of the Apostle Paul is being defied in our churches, our Bible colleges, and our seminaries. And this defiance is not being limited to the authority of the Apostle Paul—it is being extended to our Lord Christ Jesus—all in the name of “today’s culture!” Less than two weeks ago, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton officially proclaimed that the right of two people of the same sex to engage in homosexual sex is a human right, and that nations who prohibit that practice are guilty of denying their people of a fundamental human right. What will she and others proclaim next week? Who is it that has brought this sinful disgrace upon the American people? It is the Christian who claims that “some of” the teachings of the New Testament are not applicable in “today’s culture.”

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

[svfox]

The great news is god has blessed us with technology. Women can freely author books, videos, blogs, and share their enormous intelligence.

But it does look like God is saying one of your punishments because you were the one deceived and fell into transgression is that man will be given the authority of teaching.
It is purely Gods choice. It has nothing to do with man being greater than a woman.
And not just any man can teach as well.

But we have this day and age now where woman have so much education you ask how can they share. Again, Books, ebooks, blogs. God has provided a way.