Women speaking in church 5 - 1 Timothy 2

[Boo]

Does there come a time when we all realize that there will be no acceptance of a different opinion? I know that when my dog catches a squirrel, it does no good to continue to tell her to drop it, because she "owns" it. There is no letting go - no matter what excuse or reasoning I offer.

Perhaps we should apply that principle here.

Some people really like "rules."

[svfox]

Paul definitely means what he says. He had to know the bible would last forever and future people would read it to......
But the wierd part is how he stretches all the way back to Adam and Eve and uses that as a basis for his teaching.
God used women for sure, no doubt. Jesus used women to. Jesus even used the woman at the well that had 5 husbands.
Paul leaves it open to interpretation by not being more wordy and specific.
That is why the 'short and sweet' is usually the way to read it.


So...you can't send women to missionary posts in other countries where men are because they can't teach them. Even though they know nothign of the bible.

The word teaching means inside church or also outside?

Why would Paul put women in a seeming secondary spot.

What about radio? There can't be any man present since its a radio station. Are we to say no men can listen to this station while she is on the air?
Same with television.

[claybevan]

As the saying goes..
Why Confuse the issue with the facts..
Would you agree that a person who has spent weeks to even months to know and understand a topic would be rather dogmatic we some one who is uneducated.

Also to answer your question..

Doctrine of God is eternal.
It does not change to meet mans great idea of the day.

The spirit thru the hand of Paul wrote the rules for the church..
Rules are meant to be followed or there will be consequences.

For example:
God commanded of Israel that every 7 th year would be a sabbath year.
They did not follow that and it lead to 70 years of captivity.

God commanded for women to be silent in Church and submit, but the christian women got controlling and are trying to run many churches.

Since these women are not minding the house as they should.
It leads to female arrogance and pride as they are caught up in crusader arrogance and are in rebellion against that which is natural..

This leads to insecurity in the homes which lead to insecure kids.
when these insecure kids grow up it leads to a insecure people who turn to a government who promises them security.

Instead of security.. it leads to tyranny and slavery.

.as went Israel to slavery in its rebellion to Gods commands so will slavery occur to the USA in its state of rebellion to Gods commands.


It was the women that could have saved us from this.. but they was not content in their important role.

We Laws for every thing yet accomplish nothing.

There is no pipeline that that for God to bless... are all are in rebellion.
Therefore he MUST and shall judge..
Economic failure, endless wars, corrupt lawmakers..
That is the course that America is on.. thanks to women trying to be men and forsaking that which which it was so important for them to mind.

No matter what the generation.. a sound home is the foundation of society and it is the God assigned job of women to make a sound home.

Yep girls it's all our fault, what a rotten lot we are, get back in that house and bake, bake, bake and be grateful that men like Colight have allowed us to learn to read.

[shepherdsword]

1 Tim. 2:1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
9. Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10. but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (NASB, 1995)

[COLOR="#000080"] The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room).

Wait a minute,where do you see the exception in scripture for "utter a greeting when first walking into the room"? Do you have a bible verse for this or is it just your personal interpretation? Aren't you giving license without scriptural authority? Do you see how silly the whole argument for extrapolating Paul's statement to mean absolute silence? His statement is limited to the context of interrupting the meeting with questions,that is all.Were they allowed to pray? To sing? To prophesy?
We know they were allowed to prophesy because they were told to have their head covered when doing so. We also know that the context of Paul's statement was asking questions and this is qualified by the following statement..."ask their husbands at home". Paul's statement needs to be set in it's proper context otherwise it must be extended to mean absolute silence,which anyone with half a brain,knows is silly. You even inserted an exception yourself.

[Watchman]

Jemand,

I am not, as you iimagine, confused. We simply disagree. Perhaps I should say you are the one suffering from extreme confusion? Not very edifying, eh?

You dodged the question, so I'll simplify it for you. 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 do regard meetings. Paul did not forbid women from talking re: praying and prophesying. If your interpretation is correct re: 1 Timothy 2, then Paul has reversed himself. Praying and prophesying are speaking, yet you say Paul instructed Timothy that women may not speak in a meeting. Which is it?

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

Wait a minute,where do you see the exception in scripture for "utter a greeting when first walking into the room"? Do you have a bible verse for this or is it just your personal interpretation? Aren't you giving license without scriptural authority?

I was wondering if anyone else would notice this glaringly non-scriptural exception.

Do you see how silly the whole argument for extrapolating Paul's statement to mean absolute silence? His statement is limited to the context of interrupting the meeting with questions,that is all.Were they allowed to pray? To sing? To prophesy?

We know they were allowed to prophesy because they were told to have their head covered when doing so. We also know that the context of Paul's statement was asking questions and this is qualified by the following statement..."ask their husbands at home". Paul's statement needs to be set in it's proper context otherwise it must be extended to mean absolute silence,which anyone with half a brain,knows is silly. You even inserted an exception yourself.

Very succinctly put! This is the same situation I pointed out earlier...which has yet to be answered.

blessings,

W

[Slug1]

I was wondering if anyone else would notice this glaringly non-scriptural exception.


Very succinctly put! This is the same situation I pointed out earlier...which has yet to be answered.

blessings,

W

Also... the active and immediate context of the 1 Cor 14 scriptures is the "challenging" of prophecy. Such questioning of prophecy given by any church member (male or female who is prophesying) cannot be judged by women based on the context of 1 Cor 14. If they plan to question the prophecy (judge it: 1 Cor 14:29) then they are to be silent in "this" context of 1 Cor 14 scriptures of church order when tongues/prophecy is being spoken. They are to question the husband when alone if they don't understand the prophetic edification received for all in the church.

Since women can be the one who IS giving prophecy and WILL give prophecy as the scriptures TELL us that they will:

Acts 1:17 and 21:8-9, oh... 1 Cor 11:5.

For any portion of the Body of Christ to turn this into a doctrine that states NO women can talk at all, EVER... don't make ANY sense.

[Dani H]

I'm going to just say this: If you attend a church where a pastor preaches hatred, blame and condemnation toward women ... get out. Because you will get poisoned and we will end up having threads like this one and I will have to put people on ignore because of all the hatred. Identify the well of poison, and get away from it.

That is all.

[MaryFreeman]

Is this mean and insulting post an example of how female “pastors” teach the women in their congregation to behave? If it is, such “pastors” should face a trial in old Salem!

It isn't mean and insulting Jemand.... But the above quote would be.... If I let it affect me....

[MaryFreeman]

Wait a minute,where do you see the exception in scripture for "utter a greeting when first walking into the room"? Do you have a bible verse for this or is it just your personal interpretation? Aren't you giving license without scriptural authority? Do you see how silly the whole argument for extrapolating Paul's statement to mean absolute silence? His statement is limited to the context of interrupting the meeting with questions,that is all.Were they allowed to pray? To sing? To prophesy?
We know they were allowed to prophesy because they were told to have their head covered when doing so. We also know that the context of Paul's statement was asking questions and this is qualified by the following statement..."ask their husbands at home". Paul's statement needs to be set in it's proper context otherwise it must be extended to mean absolute silence,which anyone with half a brain,knows is silly. You even inserted an exception yourself.

Not to mention the fact he is asking an utter impossibility (pun intended).... Since when could ANYONE get a woman to be totally silent????

[Jemand]

Wait a minute,where do you see the exception in scripture for "utter a greeting when first walking into the room"? Do you have a bible verse for this or is it just your personal interpretation? Aren't you giving license without scriptural authority? Do you see how silly the whole argument for extrapolating Paul's statement to mean absolute silence?

The possible exception of Paul allowing women to utter a greeting when first walking into the room is found in the Greek word that Paul used for silence in 1 Tim 2:11-12. There is no need to extrapolate Paul’s teaching to mean absolute silence; the Greek word that he used means, in the context that it is used, either the state of saying very little or nothing at all. I explained this in my post in which I mentioned it. These matters are discussed in detail in the recent commentaries on the Greek text of 2 Timothy.

His statement is limited to the context of interrupting the meeting with questions,that is all.

Do you have a bible verse for this or is it just your personal interpretation? 1 Cor. 14:35 neither says nor implies what you have written.

Were they allowed to pray? To sing? To prophesy?

The Greek texts of 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 do not expressly answer these questions because the wording is ambiguous—at least in terms of our present understanding of Paul’s vocabulary and language structure.

We know they were allowed to prophesy because they were told to have their head covered when doing so. We also know that the context of Paul's statement was asking questions and this is qualified by the following statement..."ask their husbands at home". Paul's statement needs to be set in it's proper context otherwise it must be extended to mean absolute silence,which anyone with half a brain,knows is silly. You even inserted an exception yourself.

We do NOT know that women were allowed to pray and prophesy in meetings in which the church came together for worship and instruction. Whether they were hinges upon the correct interpretation of 1 Cor. 11:17,

17. But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

1 Corinthians 11:17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. (NASB, 1995)

1 Corinthians 11:17 Now that I am on the subject of instructions, I cannot congratulate you on the meetings you hold; they do more harm than good. (New Jerusalem Bible)

1 Corinthians 11:17 In giving this instruction, I do not praise the fact that your meetings are doing more harm than good. (New American Bible)

1 Corinthians 11:17 Now in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. (NRSV)

That is, are vv. 1-16 speaking of occasions when the Christians in Corinth came together as a local church, as are vv. 17-34? We do not know for sure.

Paul may have allowed women to sing, pray, and prophesy in public meetings in which the church came together for worship and instruction provided that they had their head covered. He certainly did not allow them to preach or teach on such occasions. The necessity of the women to be in subjection to the authority of the men in public meetings in which the church comes together for worship and instruction was an important issue for Paul in his role as an apostle.

Thank you for your comments and questions. They were helpful to me.

[Jemand]

Jemand,

I am not, as you iimagine, confused. We simply disagree. Perhaps I should say you are the one suffering from extreme confusion? Not very edifying, eh?

You dodged the question, so I'll simplify it for you. 1 Corinthians 11 and 14 do regard meetings. Paul did not forbid women from talking re: praying and prophesying. If your interpretation is correct re: 1 Timothy 2, then Paul has reversed himself. Praying and prophesying are speaking, yet you say Paul instructed Timothy that women may not speak in a meeting. Which is it?

blessings,

Watchman

You wrote,

There is nothing in the text that mentions meetings. There is nothing in scripture that indicates a meeting is the only place where teaching, praying, prophesying, etc, occur. Would you please clarify?

This is the part of your post that very strongly suggested to me (and still does) that you are very confused regarding Paul’s instructions in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2:9-14. Certainly, there is much about these portions of Scripture that we cannot be sure of, but they are clearly a reference to regularly summoned assemblies of believers; that is, Christian congregations coming together for worship and instruction in which both men and women are present. They were so interpreted by the Early Church and they have been so interpreted down to this day. The intention of my post was not to dodge any of your questions, but to answer your question in this part of your post.

Now you have written,

1 Corinthians 11 and 14 do regard meetings.

[Watchman]

post deleted...found answer to question in another post...sort of.

[MaryFreeman]

Ok quickly....

WHY.... Is it ok for a woman to stand up and prophesy in public assemblies in which both men and women are present.... BUT.... Teaching and preaching are NOT???

For that matter....

What is the difference between a public assembly in which both men and women are present and church?????

[Watchman]

I'm going to continue this thread, as I have time. It is apparent there will be disagreement among some here, but that is fine. The apparent tone of the discussion is deteriorating and is, in some cases, becoming too legalistic. Rest assured, that I don't have all of the answers, and don't believe anyone posting on this thread does, either. At this point, I am quite frustrated by the verbosity and tenor of some of the posts, which I believe to be nothing more than a distraction...so I'll let this rest for awhile before continuing.

W