Why Rapture?

[claybevan]

Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.




No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.

So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.

God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.

I agree and could never get my head around the fact that the 'catching away' wouldn't come before the apostasy and the revealing of the anti christ.
If we are out of it before then, who will be left to fall away and if the anti christ isn't revealed until 3 1/2 years in, we must at least be around until that time.
I think we are in it for the duration, that's why we have to be so well grounded in the word ( something that this site for me has been really valuable in, nothing like a good debate to make you do your homework]
If we are the last generation, what a privilege but God help us! we are sure going to need it.

[quiet dove]

Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.

I don't believe it presupposing that the righteous, those in Christ, who have already been saved from the wrath of God, will suffer the wrath of God. How God removed the righteous from the place of His wrath is secondary to that He will remove them.

No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.

Agreed, but I disagree that Revelation speaks of a shaking of the righteous.

So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.

I don't believe Revelation speaks of anything less than God's wrath upon those who have rejected His Son. But still, in His mercy, any who come to His Son, will be saved. The removal of the righteous prior to His wrath is not saying He then abandons those under judgment...it is saying those in Christ will not be those under judgment. But Revelation seems to make clear, imho, that during that time of His wrath, He still presents the Gospel message to men....so He is not abandoning the lost, those under His judgment and/or wrath. The escalation of the severity of the events allows for the drawing of men to His Son, and then the protecting of those who respond from further wrath.

God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.

Aren't these things to already be what the Bride is doing and on a global level? Are we to wait to do these things later, during the end events described in Revelation? While there isn't martyrdom on a global level, it is world wide with the exception of the West which may very well be rapidly approaching. But that still does not mean we have entered the time frame described in Revelation.

[quiet dove]

The last days aren't only wrath. There's also glory. Consider Revelation 14 - there's a harvest of souls for Jesus in there, not just a harvest of the grapes of wrath. Consider Revelation 12 - there's great victory in overcoming the evil one in his "finest" hour, whether one lives or dies. The theme of Revelation (repeated often in Rev. 2-3) is "overcoming" not "escaping".



That process is not needed "for" the Bride; but it is necessary "that" the Bride participate fully (in full and joyful agreement and intercession) - not watch from a distance. The Bride is for Jesus...and, for the earth. Her victory is His glory; Her escape (besides being described nowhere in the book of Revelation or elsewhere) would bring Him no glory. It's our response in the midst of great peril and trouble that glorifies the Lamb (the theme of the book, interconnected with "overcoming") and shakes the earth.

When it comes to over coming, are we not already, to daily, be overcoming? Why would this overcoming be something expected only during the events described in Revelation. Haven't many millions through out history, over come? Does over coming only apply to those who are martyred for their faith and if so, does that mean the many faithful who God did not cal on to die for their faith also did not over come? If you or I were killed in a car accident today and thus not be called upon to die for our faith, does that then mean we did not over come but we escaped?

Our response in the midst of great peril does not require the events of Revelation, but should be daily from the moment we are saved....as should our over coming. There is no over coming the wrath of God....only over coming the world, which we should be doing daily by the walking in the Spirit, in obedience.

[quiet dove]

that's why we have to be so well grounded in the word ( something that this site for me has been really valuable in, nothing like a good debate to make you do your homework]

Your exactly correct...and also disagreement/debate makes us dig and thus gain further understanding to be well grounded, knowing why we believe as we do

[the rookie]

I don't believe it presupposing that the righteous, those in Christ, who have already been saved from the wrath of God, will suffer the wrath of God. How God removed the righteous from the place of His wrath is secondary to that He will remove them.

You're making, in essence, two different arguments - which is making you argue a bit (accidentally) circularly. Argument #1 - those who have been saved from wrath will not suffer wrath. Argument #2 - they will not suffer wrath because they will be removed from it by rapture.

"That" He will protect them from His wrath is sure; "How" is the debate. The problem is, you can't simply assert that removing the church from the earth prior to the coming trouble is the only means of protection for the church from His wrath. You've already conceded that He doesn't need to remove us to protect us. Now that we've established that, we can look for examples from the past that demonstrate God's leadership over the elect during times of shaking. How were they protected? Were they ever wholly removed from it? The answer there is, again, "never". So yes, we have multiple options for how God can protect us during the outpouring of His wrath - but the pattern of redemptive history effectively removes one of the options from the table (removal from the earth). That leaves us with prophetic warning / promise - yet there as well, an option has been removed from the table. In fact, I could fill this thread with "the earth filled Gentiles worshipping / singing / praying" passages from the prophets that were directly connected to the Second Coming / Day of the Lord (Isa. 42 and Mal. 1:11 are two great passages).

Agreed, but I disagree that Revelation speaks of a shaking of the righteous.

Daniel 7 is pretty clear about it; Daniel 11:33-35 through 12:3 is as well; Revelation uses much of Daniel's prophecies. Revelation 12 is clear as well; Revelation 14 (which I referenced earlier) is also pretty straightforward; Rev. 7 couldn't be more clear about the righteous who come out of the Great Tribulation...

I don't believe Revelation speaks of anything less than God's wrath upon those who have rejected His Son. But still, in His mercy, any who come to His Son, will be saved. The removal of the righteous prior to His wrath is not saying He then abandons those under judgment...it is saying those in Christ will not be those under judgment. But Revelation seems to make clear, imho, that during that time of His wrath, He still presents the Gospel message to men....so He is not abandoning the lost, those under His judgment and/or wrath. The escalation of the severity of the events allows for the drawing of men to His Son, and then the protecting of those who respond from further wrath.

Yes, the "He" who presents the Gospel message to men is "we". It's the church's finest hour

We also pray as well (cf. Rev. 5:8; 8:1-5)

Isaiah 42 - we sing as well - from the islands, coastlands, mountains, etc.

Isaiah 24 tells us the song: "Glory to the Righteous One!"

Aren't these things to already be what the Bride is doing and on a global level? Are we to wait to do these things later, during the end events described in Revelation? While there isn't martyrdom on a global level, it is world wide with the exception of the West which may very well be rapidly approaching. But that still does not mean we have entered the time frame described in Revelation.

Yes, we're doing it already....sort of. The maturity of the Bride and the "fullness of the Gentiles" is the issue. The Bride that has "made herself ready" according to Rev. 19...we're just getting started, but there's a mature Bride coming (cf. Jn. 17, Eph. 4 - same love, same doctrine, same Jesus)

[the rookie]

When it comes to over coming, are we not already, to daily, be overcoming?

Of course. David killed lions and bears before taking on Goliath...then he had to take on Saul. Each stage prepares us for the next, more intense phase.

Why would this overcoming be something expected only during the events described in Revelation. Haven't many millions through out history, over come?

It's not. Didn't say that it did

Does over coming only apply to those who are martyred for their faith and if so, does that mean the many faithful who God did not cal on to die for their faith also did not over come?

Don't know. I know that Revelation 17 differentiates between "martyrs" and "saints" who die at the hands of the Harlot.

If you or I were killed in a car accident today and thus not be called upon to die for our faith, does that then mean we did not over come but we escaped?

Don't know. Now you're speculating, not necessarily breaking down Bible passages or concepts. There are rewards for overcoming internal and external pressure (Rev. 2-3) - he brings them with Him at His return (Rev. 22) - and we will be blessed if we make it to that point in history (Rev. 14).

The rewards for overcoming are available to every generation of faith. But the book of Revelation is primarily speaking to the generation of the Lord's return when it is most difficult to overcome.

Our response in the midst of great peril does not require the events of Revelation, but should be daily from the moment we are saved....as should our over coming. There is no over coming the wrath of God....only over coming the world, which we should be doing daily by the walking in the Spirit, in obedience.

Didn't say that it did

But if "overcoming" not "escaping" is true today; and that "overcoming" life is a witness to the lost in our day....why would the pattern of redemptive history so radically change in the last three and a half years...when the nations need an overcoming witness of love for Jesus most?

[quiet dove]

Of course. David killed lions and bears before taking on Goliath...then he had to take on Saul. Each stage prepares us for the next, more intense phase.

Agreed, but that does not mean we are being prepared to endure God's wrath, which is what I believe Revelation describes

It's not. Didn't say that it did

No, but also then being present on the earth then during the time of Revelation has nothing to do with believers, or the Church, overcoming, because as individuals we are to do that from the moment we are saved, being present on the earth for a time of God's wrath not required to say that the believer overcame.

Don't know. I know that Revelation 17 differentiates between "martyrs" and "saints" who die at the hands of the Harlot.

The saints and martyrs could be the same in that the Harlot was drunk with the blood of the saints as with the martyrs? Idk, and I hate getting into this word and that, but the word for saints is "holy ones" and the word for martyrs is "witnesses"...so maybe they are all of Christ and thus the Harlot is drunk on the blood of those who are in Christ, be they specifically "witnesses" or, (for lack of a better way of putting it), just saved. Maybe the martyrs and saints are both killed by the Harlot, but the martyrs were witnesses in some special way?

Idk, just pondering it.

Don't know. Now you're speculating, not necessarily breaking down Bible passages or concepts. There are rewards for overcoming internal and external pressure (Rev. 2-3) - he brings them with Him at His return (Rev. 22) - and we will be blessed if we make it to that point in history (Rev. 14).

I am just trying to define overcoming. Overcoming is overcoming, being martyred is being martyred.

The rewards for overcoming are available to every generation of faith. But the book of Revelation is primarily speaking to the generation of the Lord's return when it is most difficult to overcome.

Thats true, but at the same time, if we consider the persecution existing at present in different areas of the world, isn't being faced with death because of the name of Jesus ....facing death for the name of Jesus. No matter if it is during the time of Revelation or today? I mean, being killed is being killed. Why would we think Stephen any less a martyr(or any less blessed for being a martyr) than those who will die during the time of Revelation.

There is internal and external pressure...and many types of pressure within each. I believe the wrath of God starts with the opening of the seals...and if that is the case, then the letters to the churches would precede the beginning of God's wrath. Thus the Church/churches will be shaken/refined/tested....however you want to put it.

Didn't say that it did

But if "overcoming" not "escaping" is true today; and that "overcoming" life is a witness to the lost in our day....why would the pattern of redemptive history so radically change in the last three and a half years...when the nations need an overcoming witness of love for Jesus most?

The pattern is not changing...God still offers the Gospel, and calls witnesses, as we have described in the 144 thousand of Israel, the two witnesses, the angels flying across the sky...and the many more that as they come to salvation and then proclaim Christ.

If the events in Revelation were anything else(other than the wrath of God), then it would be different(as far as the Church is concerned). But I believe that Revelation, starting with the opening of the seals anyway, is the wrath of God, there fore, as we have seen in history, God does not pour out His wrath on the righteous. However, He does not abandon those under judgment and still offers mercy to all that will respond to His call....and in the midst of it all, He does call.

But now I would be the first to say that those in the West, or other places with religious freedom...are going to face what they have not faced...at least not in any recent generations over the last...what...several hundred years, or however long it has been. Christians anyway will....I mean, it is happening now. Jesus is mocked regularly on TV, Christians are maligned regularly on TV and other media....... Mocking Christ is just fine but other religions it is not just fine...we are "living on borrowed time/freedom" so to speak.

That is just the persecution to come, there is also the issue of God's shaking things up with whatever disaster He will allow to come, or even punishment. But that is still not, imho, the beginning of the opening of the seals of His wrath upon those who have rejected Christ....that is another matter, but He still offers mercy until the last one decides with following the false or turning to the True.

[jpoole21]

What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

[the rookie]

Agreed, but that does not mean we are being prepared to endure God's wrath, which is what I believe Revelation describes

As I've said (feel free to address my points anytime ) - there's more to Revelation (and the end-time plan of God) than wrath upon the nations.

No, but also then being present on the earth then during the time of Revelation has nothing to do with believers, or the Church, overcoming, because as individuals we are to do that from the moment we are saved, being present on the earth for a time of God's wrath not required to say that the believer overcame.

It is required if folks (and Israel) are going to get saved

The saints and martyrs could be the same in that the Harlot was drunk with the blood of the saints as with the martyrs? Idk, and I hate getting into this word and that, but the word for saints is "holy ones" and the word for martyrs is "witnesses"...so maybe they are all of Christ and thus the Harlot is drunk on the blood of those who are in Christ, be they specifically "witnesses" or, (for lack of a better way of putting it), just saved. Maybe the martyrs and saints are both killed by the Harlot, but the martyrs were witnesses in some special way?

Either way, they're "there"

I am just trying to define overcoming. Overcoming is overcoming, being martyred is being martyred.

Overcoming includes being martyred; also includes about six other ways in which the church will endure great pressure. All seven ways come with great reward. Again, (so that we can put this particular argument to bed) all seven highlighted in Rev. 2-3 apply to all believers in every generation; it just has particular application for the generation of the Lord's return because each of the seven issues will be at their most intense.

Thats true, but at the same time, if we consider the persecution existing at present in different areas of the world, isn't being faced with death because of the name of Jesus ....facing death for the name of Jesus. No matter if it is during the time of Revelation or today? I mean, being killed is being killed. Why would we think Stephen any less a martyr(or any less blessed for being a martyr) than those who will die during the time of Revelation.

We don't. I'm confused as to why you are conducting an argument around points that I'm not making while overlooking the points that I am making. I'm discussing what Revelation actually says (as well as many other passages) while you are addressing concepts that are, please forgive me, not relevant or germaine to the discussion. The need to overcome temptation and pressure now has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with exegeting the passages of the book of Revelation. Like I said, the passages are pretty straightforward.

In other words, overcoming pressure now prepares us to overcome it then. We do push ups and run sprints now so that we can win the Super Bowl. Your argument here (which you are repeating) is, basically, "Why do we have to win the Super Bowl then? Don't we have to win games right now?" Um, yes We have to win games now so that we can be effective during the biggest game of all time.

There is internal and external pressure...and many types of pressure within each. I believe the wrath of God starts with the opening of the seals...and if that is the case, then the letters to the churches would precede the beginning of God's wrath. Thus the Church/churches will be shaken/refined/tested....however you want to put it.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner - "assuming what you are trying to prove". You have to prove that we are gone before wrath before arguing that shaking precedes shaking and then we are gone for the shaking

I also believe that the wrath starts with the seals. But as I've been saying, that belief is irrelevant regarding the church and the trouble.

The pattern is not changing...God still offers the Gospel, and calls witnesses, as we have described in the 144 thousand of Israel, the two witnesses, the angels flying across the sky...and the many more that as they come to salvation and then proclaim Christ.

Why bring the church to maturity, remove it, and then start again with immature new believers...when we can't really even determine how they got saved (Rom. 10 - how will they hear if no one tells them?)? There's no verse in the Bible that describes that plan. AND, there's no proof that the 144K are saved

AND in Revelation 11 it doesn't seem like the two witnesses are leading too many to Jesus

AND it's not clear why the two witnesses weren't raptured with the rest of the faithful...?

AND it's not clear why the Lord would spare the righteous but then leave the....newly saved righteous?

Again...there are no verses that describe any of these scenarios.

If the events in Revelation were anything else(other than the wrath of God), then it would be different(as far as the Church is concerned). But I believe that Revelation, starting with the opening of the seals anyway, is the wrath of God, there fore, as we have seen in history, God does not pour out His wrath on the righteous. However, He does not abandon those under judgment and still offers mercy to all that will respond to His call....and in the midst of it all, He does call.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner. We've already established that God's wrath poured out on the earth does not demand the removal of the righteous.

[the rookie]

What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

I'm not saying "we" "must" go through the tribulation. I'm saying that the "generation alive at the time of the Second Coming" "will" go through the tribulation. No one would argue that the American church (which endures very little hardship, trials, or tribulations) is more mature than the Chinese Church (which has endured much trouble but is the most fervent and faithful of all of church history). Love usually isn't true until it's tested and proven

There's lots of verses that talk about the process of trials and troubles and the gold that they produce within us. There are lots of verses that encourage perseverance and patience and longsuffering. Again - it's logical that some trouble produces some gold, lots of pressure produces lots of gold.

The issue isn't "fairness" (which seems to be your argument). The issue is the kind of faith and witness (or, "faithful witness") that brings many into the kingdom during the most difficult time to get saved in history. Much trouble produces much faith which produces a glorious witness which produces a glorious harvest.

I'm not saying "we must"; again, I'm simply saying that the "church will". It's not a matter of what "we need"; it's a matter of "what will happen".

[claybevan]

What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

I don't think it has anything to do with purification and preparation. I have never thought that being a christian exempts us from rough times [ bit of an understatement, sorry ] I guess it will sort the men from the boys and maybe that's what the apostasy is about, Some might say, " a tad unfair " but we know the Lord doesn't do unfair so if we are the ones that the Old Saints spoke of it's just a matter of timing, somebody had to be here, why not us and what a privilege that some of us might see him Coming in Glory.

[John 8:32]

This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.



Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).

We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.

You are exactly correct about not being removed from the earth but receiving divine protection...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A rapture to heaven would never be called flying into the wilderness. Also, notice the timing, 3-1/2 years. The same amount of time of the final two witnesses and the same amount of time as the tribulation and day of the Lord.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Devil orchestrates this through the False Prophet and the great false church, the whore...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

[quiet dove]

As I've said (feel free to address my points anytime ) - there's more to Revelation (and the end-time plan of God) than wrath upon the nations.

It is required if folks (and Israel) are going to get saved

Either way, they're "there"

Overcoming includes being martyred; also includes about six other ways in which the church will endure great pressure. All seven ways come with great reward. Again, (so that we can put this particular argument to bed) all seven highlighted in Rev. 2-3 apply to all believers in every generation; it just has particular application for the generation of the Lord's return because each of the seven issues will be at their most intense.

We don't. I'm confused as to why you are conducting an argument around points that I'm not making while overlooking the points that I am making. I'm discussing what Revelation actually says (as well as many other passages) while you are addressing concepts that are, please forgive me, not relevant or germaine to the discussion. The need to overcome temptation and pressure now has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with exegeting the passages of the book of Revelation. Like I said, the passages are pretty straightforward.

In other words, overcoming pressure now prepares us to overcome it then. We do push ups and run sprints now so that we can win the Super Bowl. Your argument here (which you are repeating) is, basically, "Why do we have to win the Super Bowl then? Don't we have to win games right now?" Um, yes We have to win games now so that we can be effective during the biggest game of all time.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner - "assuming what you are trying to prove". You have to prove that we are gone before wrath before arguing that shaking precedes shaking and then we are gone for the shaking

I also believe that the wrath starts with the seals. But as I've been saying, that belief is irrelevant regarding the church and the trouble.

Then I won't go in circular motion any more. I believe there is precedence in scripture for God removing the righteous from the premises before His wrath...how He does it is secondary(Lot/Noah).

There is also precedence for for His protect of those who respond to Him in the midst of His wrath against those who will not. His very wrath being a witness of Himself along with His protection of those who have turned to Him in the midst of that wrath(Israel/Egypt)

There is a great deal to Revelation....but the point is, will the Church, who has been saved already from the wrath of God, be present on the earth for the wrath of God.

AND in Revelation 11 it doesn't seem like the two witnesses are leading too many to Jesus

AND it's not clear why the two witnesses weren't raptured with the rest of the faithful...?

AND it's not clear why the Lord would spare the righteous but then leave the....newly saved righteous?

Again...there are no verses that describe any of these scenarios.

You are speculating now regarding information we are not given.....and why God does what He does

Why bring the church to maturity, remove it, and then start again with immature new believers...when we can't really even determine how they got saved (Rom. 10 - how will they hear if no one tells them?)? There's no verse in the Bible that describes that plan. AND, there's no proof that the 144K are saved

What does bring the Church to maturity mean?

As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.

[claybevan]

I don't think it has anything to do with purification and preparation. I have never thought that being a christian exempts us from rough times [ bit of an understatement, sorry ] I guess it will sort the men from the boys and maybe that's what the apostasy is about, Some might say, " a tad unfair " but we know the Lord doesn't do unfair so if we are the ones that the Old Saints spoke of it's just a matter of timing, somebody had to be here, why not us and what a privilege that some of us might see him Coming in Glory.

There's me spouting off that it's got nothing to do with being purified and prepared, then I read:

“Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.” (Daniel 11:35,36)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Daniel had more understanding than I! ( you're not going to, are you?)

[John 8:32]

You are exactly correct about not being removed from the earth but receiving divine protection...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A rapture to heaven would never be called flying into the wilderness. Also, notice the timing, 3-1/2 years. The same amount of time of the final two witnesses and the same amount of time as the tribulation and day of the Lord.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Devil orchestrates this through the False Prophet and the great false church, the whore...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Just to add to this, around 66 AD, the church fled to Pella and escaped the attack on Jerusalem by Titus and his army. This was a type of Rev 12 and this information is readily available. I won't take up three pages here with C&P. Anyhoo, type and anti-type.