Why Rapture?

[the rookie]

Then I won't go in circular motion any more. I believe there is precedence in scripture for God removing the righteous from the premises before His wrath...how He does it is secondary(Lot/Noah).

None of the examples are "removal" - these two in particular are either "protection" or "direction" - meaning, God provides for and protects Noah in the midst of His judgment upon the wicked; He prophetically directs and leads Lot and His family out of the city before it is destroyed. I think that both are helpful patterns as it relates to God's leadership of the righteous as it relates to His judgment and wrath. But to extrapolate a "pre-trib rapture" is to press those examples beyond what they are communicating.

There is also precedence for for His protect of those who respond to Him in the midst of His wrath against those who will not. His very wrath being a witness of Himself along with His protection of those who have turned to Him in the midst of that wrath(Israel/Egypt)

Absolutely - much precedence for protection that does not necessitate wholesale removal. In fact, we can be protected and be "faithful witnesses" at the same exact time. A pre-trouble removal from the earth removes a "faithful witness".

There is a great deal to Revelation....but the point is, will the Church, who has been saved already from the wrath of God, be present on the earth for the wrath of God.

Yes

You are speculating now regarding information we are not given.....and why God does what He does

No, I'm asking questions based on pre-trib premises on key passages:

1. What is the role of the two witnesses? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

2. Who are the 144,000? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

3. Who is evangelizing the earth, leading to the great harvest of Rev. 7 and Rev. 14? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

4. If all of the above are spirit-filled believers, who (or what) is the restrainer?

5. If all of the above get to be on the earth during the greatest hour for evangelism in all of church history, why can't we join them?

What does bring the Church to maturity mean?

Mature in love for Jesus. First commandment (love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength) restored to first place in the body of Christ, fully expressed from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to bed. The second commandment flows out of us with real humility and meekness. The church expresses in maturity the beatitudes of Christ (Matt. 5).

Also:

John 17 (same love in us as the Father and the Son have); Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God); Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God"); Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word); Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably); Isa. 42 (unified worship adoring Jesus in singing from coastlands, islands, mountains, etc.); Mal. 1:11 (incense arising from "every place" - pure offering of worship); Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8)

As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.

Right. Are you agreeing with me here? The church in China has much to teach the church of the Western world; the verses I referenced describe a globally unified church fully mature together, not one segment lagging behind the other.

[quiet dove]

None of the examples are "removal" - these two in particular are either "protection" or "direction" - meaning, God provides for and protects Noah in the midst of His judgment upon the wicked; He prophetically directs and leads Lot and His family out of the city before it is destroyed. I think that both are helpful patterns as it relates to God's leadership of the righteous as it relates to His judgment and wrath. But to extrapolate a "pre-trib rapture" is to press those examples beyond what they are communicating.

Absolutely - much precedence for protection that does not necessitate wholesale removal. In fact, we can be protected and be "faithful witnesses" at the same exact time. A pre-trouble removal from the earth removes a "faithful witness".

You say I am seeing what is not there, I guess I would have to say you are not seeing what is there? But we are not getting anywhere...we are both going in circles

No, I'm asking questions based on pre-trib premises on key passages:

1. What is the role of the two witnesses? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

2. Who are the 144,000? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

3. Who is evangelizing the earth, leading to the great harvest of Rev. 7 and Rev. 14? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

4. If all of the above are spirit-filled believers, who (or what) is the restrainer?

5. If all of the above get to be on the earth during the greatest hour for evangelism in all of church history, why can't we join them?

It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.

The greatest hour for any man/woman...is obedience, regardless of when that hour takes place for that man/woman. And if facing death in the face is desired, that can be accomplished today and go ahead and get started on ones greatest hour, why wait? I don't think maturity is an issue when it comes to dying for ones faith...many relatively new believers have done so.

I think that only the power of God can restrain deception or deliver from it. That restrainment is not only removed, but God Himself then sends deception to those who "do not love the truth". (2 Thess 2:10). I believe the Restrainer is God the Spirit because just as God can send the Spirit, He also will remove Him. ...regardless of the rapture...the Spirit is not limited to existence to within the believers anymore than God the Father or God the Son are. So regardless of what this may or may not have to do with the rapture, I believe that only God can be the Restrainer, God the Spirit, the one who can be sent, and thus removed.

Mature in love for Jesus. First commandment (love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength) restored to first place in the body of Christ, fully expressed from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to bed. The second commandment flows out of us with real humility and meekness. The church expresses in maturity the beatitudes of Christ (Matt. 5).

Also:

John 17 (same love in us as the Father and the Son have); Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God); Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God"); Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word); Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably); Isa. 42 (unified worship adoring Jesus in singing from coastlands, islands, mountains, etc.); Mal. 1:11 (incense arising from "every place" - pure offering of worship); Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8)


As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.
Right. Are you agreeing with me here? The church in China has much to teach the church of the Western world; the verses I referenced describe a globally unified church fully mature together, not one segment lagging behind the other.

I don't see scripture teaching a time of special unification or that things get better because of that unification. Christ ask, "will I find faith on the earth"(Luke 18:8).

The believers of this last generation are no more unifed or enabled than any other generation.

I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.

[the rookie]

You say I am seeing what is not there, I guess I would have to say you are not seeing what is there? But we are not getting anywhere...we are both going in circles

Hmmm - that's the first time that I can recall someone saying that I'm using circular reasoning

Circular reasoning is "assuming what you are trying to prove" - I've simply been trying to examine what the passages we've brought up say and describe. These passages have been referenced in light of the principle you have been pressing which is God's wrath poured out on the unrighteous, and what that means for the righteous. My point all along is that the principle is right (God's wrath is not poured out on the righteous) but the application lacks scriptural precedence (no scriptural example of a pre-trouble "removal to heaven" for saints) and it lacks scriptural prophecy (no scriptural prediction or description of a future removal). Therefore, it is logical to conclude that God will protect the righteous from His wrath in the same manner that He always has in ages past.

Technically, that's not circular reasoning, rather it's arguing from the available data.

It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Typically, dispensationalists argue that the 144K get saved after the rapture of the saints (some argue that this happens after the removal of the Holy Spirit as the "restrainer" as well - a theological impossibility) - after they are saved they are the primary evangelists on the earth. I'm saying that the premise is illogical.

Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.

There is a difference in the New Covenant between "Church Prophets" and "Jewish Prophets"? Anything the two witnesses do has to be consistent with the New Covenant - there can't be a "reversion" to "Old Testament Jewish Prophets" before the Second Coming. Maybe you could explain that concept better...?

The greatest hour for any man/woman...is obedience, regardless of when that hour takes place for that man/woman. And if facing death in the face is desired, that can be accomplished today and go ahead and get started on ones greatest hour, why wait? I don't think maturity is an issue when it comes to dying for ones faith...many relatively new believers have done so.

You're arguing against something I'm not saying.

I think that only the power of God can restrain deception or deliver from it. That restrainment is not only removed, but God Himself then sends deception to those who "do not love the truth". (2 Thess 2:10). I believe the Restrainer is God the Spirit because just as God can send the Spirit, He also will remove Him. ...regardless of the rapture...the Spirit is not limited to existence to within the believers anymore than God the Father or God the Son are. So regardless of what this may or may not have to do with the rapture, I believe that only God can be the Restrainer, God the Spirit, the one who can be sent, and thus removed.

How can "God be removed"?

I don't see scripture teaching a time of special unification or that things get better because of that unification. Christ ask, "will I find faith on the earth"(Luke 18:8).

The believers of this last generation are no more unifed or enabled than any other generation.

Then you read through the scriptures I referenced that say the exact opposite?

I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.

I would suggest reading through those passages again

[quiet dove]

Hmmm - that's the first time that I can recall someone saying that I'm using circular reasoning

I just meant that we are not agreeing and will probably continue to just go in a circle of not agreeing, it was not really a comment about your reasoning...lol

I will read the rest here shortly but have some chores to see too so may be later today or tonight...not ignoring though

[quiet dove]

Circular reasoning is "assuming what you are trying to prove" - I've simply been trying to examine what the passages we've brought up say and describe. These passages have been referenced in light of the principle you have been pressing which is God's wrath poured out on the unrighteous, and what that means for the righteous. My point all along is that the principle is right (God's wrath is not poured out on the righteous) but the application lacks scriptural precedence (no scriptural example of a pre-trouble "removal to heaven" for saints) and it lacks scriptural prophecy (no scriptural prediction or description of a future removal). Therefore, it is logical to conclude that God will protect the righteous from His wrath in the same manner that He always has in ages past.

Are you not also "trying to prove"? Why is it circular reasoning for me to try and prove but the same does not apply to your trying to prove? Just curious about that...

If we say that God can only move as He has is past ages, or in a manner that there has been precedence, then where do we say past ages, or precedence begins...God never sent a flood before Noah....He never brought a nation out of slavery prior to bringing Israel out of Egypt..... He never singled out a man to bring forth a nation to serve Him prior to His calling out Abraham. I mean, if the logic is God cannot move but in ways He previously has, when does previously begin...where my logic determines, or yours?

I understand that God never removed the righteous to heaven prior to His wrath, but the fact is, He has removed the righteous from where His wrath was being dealt out. And He has removed righteous from the earth(Gen 5:24/Heb 11:15; 2 Ki 2:11). It has not always been a matter of preserving the righteous in the midst of...which has been my point.

Technically, that's not circular reasoning, rather it's arguing from the available data.

We are both arguing from what we believe the available data teaches. Why I am the one with circular reasoning, trying to prove what I assume to be true? Regardless of who is correct, I assume no less or no more than you are assuming about yourself being correct. Are we not both doing the same thing in putting forth(prove) to show what we assume to be correct?

Just askin......

Typically, dispensationalists argue that the 144K get saved after the rapture of the saints (some argue that this happens after the removal of the Holy Spirit as the "restrainer" as well - a theological impossibility) - after they are saved they are the primary evangelists on the earth. I'm saying that the premise is illogical.

If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)
God says regarding the 144K
Rev 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,

Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?

You are telling me my perspective is illogical, but you did not explain the Jewish tribes of the Church.

There is a difference in the New Covenant between "Church Prophets" and "Jewish Prophets"? Anything the two witnesses do has to be consistent with the New Covenant - there can't be a "reversion" to "Old Testament Jewish Prophets" before the Second Coming. Maybe you could explain that concept better...?

I did not say they were working under any other Covenant but the New when it comes to salvation....and I didn't say there was a reversion as in Covenants( just for the record). But I am saying that God is now working through Israel, or through Jewish prophets, and under the New Covenant, they are working to bring men to Jesus Christ. God clearly states that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel, and I am saying the same for these two witnesses.

You're arguing against something I'm not saying.

I understood you to say, and maybe I understood incorrectly...but that the time of Revelation would be the greatest time for witnessing, why would we want to miss that greatest hour? If I misunderstood I apologize.
What then is our greatest hour and why, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

How can "God be removed"?

How could the Holy Spirit be sent? Thats just it, God will not be removing Himself, and while the Spirit is certainly God, we do know that God the Father sent God the Spirit. So if He can be sent, He can be removed.

But you disagree with me? Who/what do you believe the restrainer to be?

Then you read through the scriptures I referenced that say the exact opposite?

John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?
There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?

Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God");

Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".

Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God);

Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).

Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.

Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word);

And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.

Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8) "

It says the prayers of the saints went up before God, nothing about unified prayer of a global Church. I'm sure God hears all the prayer of all the saints upon the earth, who are all part of the one Body of Christ, no doubt...but it still says nothing about a special generation of a unified globally upon the earth part of that one Body.
We cannot limit those that God avenges to those upon the earth and thus apply it to a unified global earthly Church.(Rev 6:9)

Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably);

How does Revelation 19 speak of anything but the fully perfected entire Bride, clothed in her heavenly dwelling/bodies. I just don't see how it possibly speaks of global, as in earthly, unified Church. It does speak of the Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ, but the completed, not only a portion that is "global" as in on the earth. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you...if I am, I'm apologize. I am responding based on this comment of mine regarding the passages including the ones from the OT, and your comment to my comments

"I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.

I would suggest reading through those passages again "

[zoe4me]

Where did you come up with this stupid SECRET RAPTURE idea. There is nothing secret about the last trumpet when we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It may be secret to you because you may not be in the removing of the Church. You could be a tare amoung the wheat and don't know it. You have to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you to understand. To the heathen it is secret. To the world all this is secret, so you may need to search your heart and see if you belong among the Chosen. My brother did a great job of explaining, what is known amoung the church as the rapture, the removal of the Church. Sure the word rapture is not found in scripture but the event is. The nature man can not understand spiritual things and religious people do not understand the truth. Christianity is not a religion.

[the rookie]

Are you not also "trying to prove"? Why is it circular reasoning for me to try and prove but the same does not apply to your trying to prove? Just curious about that...

Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.

Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).

If we say that God can only move as He has is past ages, or in a manner that there has been precedence, then where do we say past ages, or precedence begins...God never sent a flood before Noah....He never brought a nation out of slavery prior to bringing Israel out of Egypt..... He never singled out a man to bring forth a nation to serve Him prior to His calling out Abraham. I mean, if the logic is God cannot move but in ways He previously has, when does previously begin...where my logic determines, or yours?

Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.

I understand that God never removed the righteous to heaven prior to His wrath, but the fact is, He has removed the righteous from where His wrath was being dealt out. And He has removed righteous from the earth(Gen 5:24/Heb 11:15; 2 Ki 2:11). It has not always been a matter of preserving the righteous in the midst of...which has been my point.

Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.

Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says

2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.

If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)

It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved

Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?

I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?

You are telling me my perspective is illogical, but you did not explain the Jewish tribes of the Church.

It's illogical to:

1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;

2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;

3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.

The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.

I did not say they were working under any other Covenant but the New when it comes to salvation....and I didn't say there was a reversion as in Covenants( just for the record). But I am saying that God is now working through Israel, or through Jewish prophets, and under the New Covenant, they are working to bring men to Jesus Christ. God clearly states that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel, and I am saying the same for these two witnesses.

1. How did they get saved apart from the witness of the church? (Rom. 10:14)

2. How does the "fullness of the Gentiles" (and what is the "fullness of the Gentiles") provoke Israel to jealousy (and salvation)? (Rom. 11:25)

3. How did they (including the "martyrs" of Rev. 6 & 20) get saved during that time without the Holy Spirit of God? (Eph. 1:13-14)

4. Why does the Lord command Gentiles to sing for Israel's salvation during Jacob's trouble? (Jer. 31:7)

5. Why does the Lord prophesy that the Gentiles will make His name "great amongst the nations" from "every place" - and when will this happen? (Mal. 1:11)

6. Who is protecting Israel in the wilderness during her darkest hour? (Rev. 12:16)

7.

I understood you to say, and maybe I understood incorrectly...but that the time of Revelation would be the greatest time for witnessing, why would we want to miss that greatest hour?

We wouldn't. I want to be here with all my heart

If I misunderstood I apologize.

No worries! This is fun

What then is our greatest hour and why, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.

But you disagree with me? Who/what do you believe the restrainer to be?

Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...

John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?

Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?

There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?

Yes.

Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".

Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?

Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).

Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".

Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.

Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?

And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.

We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?

It says the prayers of the saints went up before God, nothing about unified prayer of a global Church. I'm sure God hears all the prayer of all the saints upon the earth, who are all part of the one Body of Christ, no doubt...but it still says nothing about a special generation of a unified globally upon the earth part of that one Body.

That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.

We cannot limit those that God avenges to those upon the earth and thus apply it to a unified global earthly Church.(Rev 6:9)

That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.

How does Revelation 19 speak of anything but the fully perfected entire Bride, clothed in her heavenly dwelling/bodies. I just don't see how it possibly speaks of global, as in earthly, unified Church. It does speak of the Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ, but the completed, not only a portion that is "global" as in on the earth. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you...if I am, I'm apologize. I am responding based on this comment of mine regarding the passages including the ones from the OT, and your comment to my comments

Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?

[the rookie]

Where did you come up with this stupid SECRET RAPTURE idea. There is nothing secret about the last trumpet when we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It may be secret to you because you may not be in the removing of the Church. You could be a tare amoung the wheat and don't know it. You have to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you to understand. To the heathen it is secret. To the world all this is secret, so you may need to search your heart and see if you belong among the Chosen. My brother did a great job of explaining, what is known amoung the church as the rapture, the removal of the Church. Sure the word rapture is not found in scripture but the event is. The nature man can not understand spiritual things and religious people do not understand the truth. Christianity is not a religion.

Please be respectful in here...or don't post at all. We can disagree, but we can be kind and loving in disagreement. Thanks for understanding.

[zoe4me]

Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.

Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).



Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.



Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.

Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says

2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.




It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved



I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?



It's illogical to:

1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;

2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;

3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.

The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.



1. How did they get saved apart from the witness of the church? (Rom. 10:14)

2. How does the "fullness of the Gentiles" (and what is the "fullness of the Gentiles") provoke Israel to jealousy (and salvation)? (Rom. 11:25)

3. How did they (including the "martyrs" of Rev. 6 & 20) get saved during that time without the Holy Spirit of God? (Eph. 1:13-14)

4. Why does the Lord command Gentiles to sing for Israel's salvation during Jacob's trouble? (Jer. 31:7)

5. Why does the Lord prophesy that the Gentiles will make His name "great amongst the nations" from "every place" - and when will this happen? (Mal. 1:11)

6. Who is protecting Israel in the wilderness during her darkest hour? (Rev. 12:16)

7.



We wouldn't. I want to be here with all my heart



No worries! This is fun



I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.



Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...



Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?



Yes.



Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?



Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".



Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?



We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?



That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.



That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.



Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?

You need to work on your Greek. in verse 7 the restrainer is masculine not neuter, it is a participle. But you missed the gender.

[zoe4me]

Sorry I understand.

[Matthehitmanhart]

You need to work on your Greek. in verse 7 the restrainer is masculine not neuter, it is a participle. But you missed the gender.

He didn't miss the masculine. He said the restrainer had to be both an "it" (v. 6) and a "he" (v. 7).

[jpoole21]

I disagree with you Rookie. I'm not going to write a college thesis on it because that's been done pro and against a million times on this forum and others. I'm not a Bible scholar and I can't quote 3/4 of it from memory, but I've seen the so called best teachers and their messages pro and against rapture and I believe the pro rapture argument makes more sense and seems more in line with what the scriptures say. Yes, I am aware you can post 100 scriptures that you're sure back your understanding and that's fine, but I disagree.

I also say while I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, I also say that if we are here for it ( if we are the generation that sees it...and I think we are ) then it is what it is and I'll do what I can to make what God has planned for me happen. Or rather, He will have me do what He will have me do. I'm not going to fall on my face and doubt God because the rapture didn't happen. I wouldn't lose faith and accept the mark because the rapture didn't happen. I'd just try to serve whatever purpose I have to serve.

[zoe4me]

He didn't miss the masculine. He said the restrainer had to be both an "it" (v. 6) and a "he" (v. 7).

You need to look at the case of the participles. In verse 6 it is in the accusative case speaking of the act of restraining him and of coarse it would be in the neuter. But verse 7 the participle is the subject of the sentence and it reads "He who now restrains it" This one is in the nominative case and the it is speaking of, is " the mystery of lawlessness" The restrainer is a He! This is speaking of the Holy Spirit restraining the revealing of the antichrist. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A HE AND IS THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY! A PERSON NOT AN IT AND HE IS NOT NEUTER.
Restraining is neuter but the one that does the restraining is Masculine. The Holy Spirit is only in the Christians and when the church is taken out of the way, we have what is referred to in Christianity as the rapture. Nothing secret about the taking away! All of your verses you quote are not in the context of these verses. They are just random quotes from the bible. This is how most cults are started. They quote things out of context like you have done. Sorry if this offends you but when you read the gospels Jesus was always offending the religious people with the TRUTH. These quotes out of context is serious. God is all about truth and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you were in court none of these verses you quotes would be revealant.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Restraining is neuter but the one that does the restraining is Masculine. The Holy Spirit is only in the Christians and when the church is taken out of the way, we have what is referred to in Christianity as the rapture. Nothing secret about the taking away! All of your verses you quote are not in the context of these verses. They are just random quotes from the bible. This is how most cults are started. They quote things out of context like you have done. Sorry if this offends you but when you read the gospels Jesus was always offending the religious people with the TRUTH. These quotes out of context is serious. God is all about truth and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you were in court none of these verses you quotes would be revealant.

What verses did I quote? I've only commented on this thread once, in an effort to clarify what Rookie said, but I haven't engaged in the debate or quoted any texts, let alone texts out of context.

Speaking of texts out of context, though... You appear confident in thinking that the restrainer refers to the Holy Spirit, but at best this can be only a plausible speculation, since Paul himself does not tell us this. But you infer beyond that: you say that when the restrainer is taken out of the way, this refers not to the Holy Spirit, but to the church, the dwelling place of the Spirit. Thus, for you: restrainer = Holy Spirit, but restrainer taken away = church raptured. This goes beyond plausible speculation to plain old eisegesis.

But not only does this view read into the text a scheme which appears to be foreign to Paul; it ignores the rest of the chapter in order to do so. While the pre-trib reading of this passage relies entirely upon inference, Paul is explicit that Christ's coming and our gathering together to him will not take place until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. It is the second of these two events to which Paul connects the activity of the restrainer. When the restrainer is taken out the way, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Thus, if you were right, and the restrainer referred to the Holy Spirit, and the restrainer being taken away referred to the rapture of the church, then Paul would be guilty of a simple contradiction, since he has just said that the gathering of the church to Christ would not take place until after the revealing of the man of sin. But again, Paul tells us neither (a) that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, nor (b) that his removal is the rapture of the church, and everything he does tell us weighs heavily against such extravagant speculations.

[claybevan]

What verses did I quote? I've only commented on this thread once, in an effort to clarify what Rookie said, but I haven't engaged in the debate or quoted any texts, let alone texts out of context.

Speaking of texts out of context, though... You appear confident in thinking that the restrainer refers to the Holy Spirit, but at best this can be only a plausible speculation, since Paul himself does not tell us this. But you infer beyond that: you say that when the restrainer is taken out of the way, this refers not to the Holy Spirit, but to the church, the dwelling place of the Spirit. Thus, for you: restrainer = Holy Spirit, but restrainer taken away = church raptured. This goes beyond plausible speculation to plain old eisegesis.

But not only does this view read into the text a scheme which appears to be foreign to Paul; it ignores the rest of the chapter in order to do so. While the pre-trib reading of this passage relies entirely upon inference, Paul is explicit that Christ's coming and our gathering together to him will not take place until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. It is the second of these two events to which Paul connects the activity of the restrainer. When the restrainer is taken out the way, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Thus, if you were right, and the restrainer referred to the Holy Spirit, and the restrainer being taken away referred to the rapture of the church, then Paul would be guilty of a simple contradiction, since he has just said that the gathering of the church to Christ would not take place until after the revealing of the man of sin. But again, Paul tells us neither (a) that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, nor (b) that his removal is the rapture of the church, and everything he does tell us weighs heavily against such extravagant speculations.

We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.