Why Rapture?

[zoe4me]

You are confusing the second coming with the removal of the one that restrains. The Christian belief of a rapture is not the second coming. At the second coming He comes to the earth, at the rapture He only comes in the air and calls us out and we will meet the Lord in the air. You are confusing the two events.

[Matthehitmanhart]

We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.

Could be. It definitely sits easier with the text than the awkward Holy-Spirit-and-the-church theory. Although, given that Paul alludes to the church's knowledge of the restrainer's identity, it seems strange that they would know that it was Michael who was restraining the man of sin. Seems a little out of left field.

[Matthehitmanhart]

You are confusing the second coming with the removal of the one that restrains. The Christian belief of a rapture is not the second coming. At the second coming He comes to the earth, at the rapture He only comes in the air and calls us out and we will meet the Lord in the air. You are confusing the two events.

I think you might have misunderstood my post. I didn't imply that the removal of the restrainer is synonymous with the second coming. Rather, I said that the removal of the restrainer is connected in the text with the revealing of the man of sin, which Paul says must take place before the gathering of the saints to Christ. Or, to put it otherwise: the rapture cannot take place until after the removal of the restrainer and the revealing of the man of sin.

[claybevan]

Could be. It definitely sits easier with the text than the awkward Holy-Spirit-and-the-church theory. Although, given that Paul alludes to the church's knowledge of the restrainer's identity, it seems strange that they would know that it was Michael who was restraining the man of sin. Seems a little out of left field.

Off beam and out of left, that'll be me! Not as wacky though as those that believe that God ordained the governments and it is they that with the help of our prayers are restraining, I think we need to pray harder
Tis intriguing, the best non fiction drama, historical, thriller, who is it, ever.
Besides Gen 3: 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
are there any other refs to angels holding back or barring the way to anything?
It's 2am over here in blighty, night, night.

[quiet dove]

Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.

Having proven it because it is what you believe is the correct understanding. And I appreciate the honesty that you have in what you believe is correct. But you have not proven it to be correct to me.

As we already discussed, I agree that men can be protected in the midst of God's wrath, however, what I disagree with is the premise that this final seven years is in regards to the Church. OT prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, has not been brought to pass, God still has unfinished business with the nation(; 43:1-8; Isa 41:1)

Revelation 12:6,15, the woman, Israel(vv1,2), is protected...however her offspring, we are told, the dragon makes war with.

The pattern of Exodus is a pattern with Israel, and the pattern of the trumpets more a pattern of the protected during the "time of Jacob's trouble"(Jer 30:7), and the nation being brought to the Messiah they rejected, to then serve the LORD their God, and David their King.(v9), the Millennial Kingdom. And imho, further support that the 144K and the two, are of Israel.

What is interesting is the word in Jeremiah 30:7 for trouble, it is feminine, and can be defined as "vexter, rival wife". From what I can find in study it reads some thing like this " a season of distress, she to Jacob, and from her he will be delivered". I just find that interesting..... And this would be different if it was a season of distress for Abraham descendents and thus possibly supporting the argument that those saved were grafted into Abrahams descendents(provided one is amil...lol), but it doesn't, it says Jacob, and Jacob is Israel(Gen 32 and of course Jacob inherited the promises given to Abraham(Gen 28:13-14)

Eph 1:14 does say we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but it says nothing one way or the other regarding removal. And 1 thess 5:9,we are not appointed to wrath, but again, not regarding removal one way or the other....

Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).

And I have shown there is precedence for removal, regardless of how or where to. And there is precedence for the removal of one who is righteous from the earth without that one seeing mortal death. Saying that there is no historical pattern for removal from the earth does not equate to not being possible in that many of the things God has done were the first time He has done them.

And I agree, Godis merciful and warns men and has told us what the future holds regarding the end of this age. Even a pre-trib Rapture does not leave a person without need of those warnings. Even worse than what will happen in Revelation, or the worst of what will happen, is not what will kill the mortal man, but the deception that will cause him to loose his soul. That is the greatest warning we need to heed. We can't do anything about much of what is coming, but deception we, or any man, can avoid.

Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.

And for me, He has spoken of a Rapture in advance...you disagee I know, but to me, He has spoken of this unprecedented move. And not to just be argumentative, but I believe that what scripture teaches about God, a Rapture of the righteous before this unprecedented time of trouble is just what He would do...awesom mercy, from and awesome God the Father toward the Bride of the Groom. Before the "day of the Lord", yes...that is what I believe scripture teaches about our God. Because it is not about those raptured, it is about the One they are raptured to, and away from the day of the Lord, "darkness, and not light....with no brightness in it"(Amos 5:20)

It will not be our partnering together, it will be only by His power...The Beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them(Rev 13:7; Dan 7:21). Jesus returns and eliminates the unrighteous and brings in justice and peace.(Rev 19:17-21 ; Dan 7:22)

Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.

My intent was not to build a doctrine, but only to show that God has indeed removed mortal men from the earth without their seeing mortal death. And the word laquch may be difficult to define, but it is used many times and many times translated in some form of "took", "take", "taken".

Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says

Thats because it was supposed to be 11:5, sorry about that. I read 11:15 and even I wondered what I was talking about...LOL!!

2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.

Heb 11:5 is quoting about Enoch in Gen 5:24. And the word in question is a verb with wide application, but still with a basic meaning of "to take". though in the KJV it is used such as take, receive, fetch, bring, get, carry, marry, buy...but all those have a sense of, "to take", or "to get"

If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)

It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved

I disagree, God the Spirit being omnipresent is certainly not limited to existence within believers or working through believes. The Spirit convicts and works on men prior to them being saved.(John 16:8) He only indwells those who are saved. There fore, removing those who are indwelled has no bearing on whether or not the Spirit would then continue to convict unsaved men of their sin.


Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?

I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?

If you don't think they(144K)are believers at all then what are they?
It's illogical to:
1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;
2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;
3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.

I have been using scripture throught out my arguments, you may disagree with me, but I am using scripture and my lack of "proving" I am correct to you does not equate to me not being correct.

1) The Bride will be removed before the wrath of her Groom(1 Thes 1:10; Rev 6:16)
2) The God the Spirit, being omnipresent, is not limited to existence to within the indwelt believers. The Spirit convicts men of sin prior to their being indwelt, removing indwelt believers does not prevent the Spirit's ability to convict the unsaved of their sin(Jon 16:8) And the Spirit was very active regarding God's dealings with men through out the OT, prior to the NT. He is not unable to work if the Bride is removed
3)The Spirit will be present as He is omnipresent God. And the message of the Gospel will be upon the earth even if angels have to proclaim it. (14:6) The two witnesses and the 144K all witnesses of God. You seem to insist that without the Church God has no means of presenting the Gospel, the angel of 14:6 proves that that is not the case.

The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.

I have said all along, and along with any pre tribber I know of, which of course is certainly not all of them, but safe to say that main stream pre trib would agree with you, many get saved after the rapture. I don't know about the rest of the pre tribbers out there but I have never said any differently.
I have corrected it...and as far as calling it illogical, that is not the worst I have been called so no worries...lol
I have not violated the New Covenant..I have shown that the Church is not God's only means of presenting the Gospel and that removing the Church does not equate then to the Spirit being unable to convict the sinner.

Ok, now answer my question, what are the twelve tribes of the Church?

I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.

Christ Second Advent will certainly be a glorious moment for all who love Him, no doubt. However, hypothetically speaking, were there a Rapture, that would be pretty darn glorious and a most unusual moment for all in Christ Jesus also...would it not?

I don't know where in scripture it teaches that the dead in Christ and the living in Christ labor together during those last hoursof this age. What are you basing that on?

Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...

So basically you have not come to a definite on that?

[quiet dove]

John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?

Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?

It has been happening all along with all obedient believers. Are you saying the disciples or no other belivers have been included in that prayer? We are all members of the same one Body, my fingers and toes cannot be any more united in one body than they already are, regardless if my hands want to go left and my feet want to go right. They are united in my one body. Jesus prayer is for all who are part of His Body, not just a special last generation. Yes, it is fulfilled on a continuing basis as members are added to the Body.

There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?

Yes.

I don't see anything you have put forth as supporting that concept

Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".

Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?

Yes, those promises are for all believers...of all generations. Unity does not reach and achieve these promises...the willing heart of any individual believers recieves, through Christ, these promises

Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).

Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".

This ready Bride is in heaven preparing, or prepared, to return with Christ, not a unified Bride still upon the earth.

In past revivals, an outpouring of the Spirit was a building of members into the Church, not a special moment of a more unified Church. A pouring out of the Spirit toward the salvation of more men, not a specail pouring out that is for the purpose of an end days Church having something special that no previous generation possessed

Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.

Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?

Has the Church been growing since Pentecost?
And yes, the Church is full of mature, grounded and built up in love. Just as there has always been the true believers, mature believers built up in love.

And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.

We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?

Christ sanctifies and is sanctifying every believer from the moment they become His.

Her perfection will not be completed and fully realized until she is clothed in heavenly bodies

That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.

I didn't say it was a passage about the principle of prayer, I said it is the prayers of the saints and God hears all the prayers of the saints upon the earht, now and then. I agree, it is prophecy about those praying at that future time, it is a prophecy about saints who will be praying, but nothing about those saints being any more of less unified than any other saints have been

Believers are unified by the One Spirit into one Body. Any obedient member of that Body is going to be in aggrement with God's purpose. There is no more unified than what God has unifed by His indwelling Spirit. Be it one or a thousand obedient believers, God will accomplish His purpose...even if He has to accomplish Himself without any obedient believers. Obedience is commanded, but not required for God to accomplish what He has determined to accomplish. God will succeed with or without the obedience of men. Of course it is certainly to the benefit and blessing of men to be obedient.

That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.

I was not saying it was a principle on the teaching of justice, my point is that those seen here are in heaven, are the martyred under the altar, not a global unified Church upon the earth.

Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?

I gave explanation of my understanding of the verses. However, typing "it can't be" would solve the problem of my long windedness...so it could have it's benefits...(haha-thats a joke)

The asking of ""could it be" is reasonable with any passage in considering interpretation...don't assume that I am not considering the arguments against my views.

Revelation 19, being of post-resurrection Bride, does not equate to God 'not' desiring..... The NT does not teach, imho, anywhere, that men, while still in these mortal corruptible bodies will reach their completed perfection. The fleshly bodies cannot be made so...(Matt 26:41; Rom 7:17-25; 1Pe 1:24)

[The Beginner]

Y
It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.

Hey Quiet Dove,

Im am trying to understand your position on this piece a little better... I gather that you believe the 144K are prophets to Israel and since they are evangelizing I would assume you believe they are believers in Christ. What I haven't understood from you post is "when do they get saved"? In your opinion, when do the 144K become believers? Before or after the Rapture?

Thanks

[David Taylor]

For the most part I agree.

I would add that it is called the "time of Jacob's trouble" not the time of "the church's trouble".

Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.

Jeremiah 1:3 "It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month."

Jeremiah 2:26 "As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets.
2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah."

Jeremiah 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them. Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal. "

Jeremiah 13:17 "But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive."

Jeremiah 14:7 "O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.
14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night? "

Jeremiah 15:2 "And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity. "

Jeremiah 29:1 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;"

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 31:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

Jeremiah 32:44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:1 "Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. "

Jeremiah 52:27 And the king of Babylon smote them, and put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive out of his own land. This is the people whom Nebuchadrezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year three thousand Jews and three and twenty:

[quiet dove]

Hey Quiet Dove,

Im am trying to understand your position on this piece a little better... I gather that you believe the 144K are prophets to Israel and since they are evangelizing I would assume you believe they are believers in Christ. What I haven't understood from you post is "when do they get saved"? In your opinion, when do the 144K become believers? Before or after the Rapture?

Thanks

It would have to be after, if they were saved prior to they would have been raptured and not be on the earth anyway.

[quiet dove]

When taken in full context, I believe this is speaking to Jacob, who is Israel...and has not been fulfilled, yet. All the prophets, in the midst of impending prophecies, also prophecy beyond and through out history.


Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Jer 30:10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'

[billy-brown 2]

When taken in full context, I believe this is speaking to Jacob, who is Israel...and has not been fulfilled, yet. All the prophets, in the midst of impending prophecies, also prophecy beyond and through out history.


Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Jer 30:10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'

QD,

Does not the red text above refer to the captive exiles of Judah from of old?

[DurbanDude]

We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.

I believe the restrainer is Satan, he does not readily lose his place and come to earth for his 3.5 years of wrath. Satan tries to stay in heaven but is forcibly thrown out to earth for his period of wrath. Rev 12 along with the gospels reveal that our testimony comes first , the gospel must first be preached to all nations, then the end will come. So we are trying to usher in the end, Satan is trying to delay the end. It is not the Holy Spirit that is delaying satan's wrath, Rev 12 reveals it is Satan himself who does not want to be cast down to earth.


12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan will be cast down, he doesn't want it, he is the delayer, the church is speeding the end, Satan fights to stay in heaven, knowing his short time on earth will precede his destruction. This is the more biblical approach rather than the church trying to delay the tribulation and satan trying to rush towards it as we are incorrectly taught.

[SirToady]

The restrainer is the Holy Ghost - whom after the Holy Ghost is removed, during the rapture - Satan and his ilk have free reign over the whole world.

People seem to forget the Jewish context in regards to the Tribulation. The church has NOTHING to do with the events of the Tribulation. You can't mix the Jewish and Christian programs.

[quiet dove]

QD,

Does not the red text above refer to the captive exiles of Judah from of old?

That one part does not change the fact that the rest has not ever come to pass. The land of their captivity could easily be any land they are in that is not their own. Like I said though...all the prophets went from present to future to last days future and often with not a lot of warning.

[DurbanDude]

The restrainer is the Holy Ghost - whom after the Holy Ghost is removed, during the rapture - Satan and his ilk have free reign over the whole world.

People seem to forget the Jewish context in regards to the Tribulation. The church has NOTHING to do with the events of the Tribulation. You can't mix the Jewish and Christian programs.

I wish you had a back-up verse to support your view