Why Rapture?

[John 8:32]

Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.[/I]

Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

How many one off's are there?

Was this worse than 70 AD, The Bar Kokhba revolt 132-136 AD, WWII 1939-1945 AD? Is this the worst there has ever been or ever will be?

And when did this occur?

Jer 30:8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

[billy-brown 2]

That one part does not change the fact that the rest has not ever come to pass. The land of their captivity could easily be any land they are in that is not their own. Like I said though...all the prophets went from present to future to last days future and often with not a lot of warning.

But QD,

Is not the context of the chapter is set from the verses below?

Jer. 30
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
3‘For behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The LORD says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”
4Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah: . . .

I mean, Israel and Judah was in captivity when this was written, yes?

[quiet dove]

But QD,

Is not the context of the chapter is set from the verses below?

Jer. 30
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
3‘For behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The LORD says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”
4Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah: . . .

I mean, Israel and Judah was in captivity when this was written, yes?

Their fortunes are not only to be restored, but more than restored. The Babylonian captivity ended in 70 years, however, that was not the end of the nation being under the thumb, and often very cruel thumb of Gentile nations, and it has been that way since the Babylonian captivity. They have not been restored to a state of living without concern serving their King. They have had brief moments of lesser domination by Gentile nations, but thats it. With the rejection of their promised Messiah, they remained without their restored kingdom and under the thumb of Gentile powers....the prophesies of restoration and blessing, under the rule of their King and serving Him has not happened. And Jacob is not the Church. Jacob is a singled out portion of Abraham's descendents brought forth to be a nation. The prophesies declare that that portion, will at some point, be in obedience to God, knowing their Messiah and serving Him, their promised King

[The Beginner]

Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.

If the prophecy of Jeremiah 30-31 has nothing to do with future, then there are some problems with the text. There is information given within that prophecy that never saw fulfillment with the return of the captives from Babylon...

Lets look at the culmination of the prophecy

Jer 31:38-40 NKJV - [38] "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. [39] "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. [40] "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

Jeremiah gives very specific geographical locations in the city of Jerusalem that will be rebuilt and will never be "plucked up or thrown down anymore forever". Yet we know from history that the city of Jerusalem was indeed "plucked up and thrown down" during the sieges of 70AD. Thus the "forever" part is either false or it is yet future in fulfillment...

IMO, this prophecy cannot simply be a symbolic representation of the church unless one can identify the proper symbolic meaning of the "horse gate, corner gate, tower of Hananel, the hill Gareb and the Goath" and their connection to the church...

[Realist1981]

Without hitting the Quote button and quoting virtually an entire page of text... This is in response to the Original Poster's original post when he wrote.....




"The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



"This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________



So are you trying to say that "The foundation of the Christian Faith" is whether you believe in a pre tribulational rapture?

[billy-brown 2]

Their fortunes are not only to be restored, but more than restored. The Babylonian captivity ended in 70 years, however, that was not the end of the nation being under the thumb, and often very cruel thumb of Gentile nations, and it has been that way since the Babylonian captivity. They have not been restored to a state of living without concern serving their King. They have had brief moments of lesser domination by Gentile nations, but thats it. With the rejection of their promised Messiah, they remained without their restored kingdom and under the thumb of Gentile powers....the prophesies of restoration and blessing, under the rule of their King and serving Him has not happened. And Jacob is not the Church. Jacob is a singled out portion of Abraham's descendents brought forth to be a nation. The prophesies declare that that portion, will at some point, be in obedience to God, knowing their Messiah and serving Him, their promised King

QD,

But is there any instance where all of Israel acknowledged who the King is?

After all, the King is Jesus.

And some from Israel have rejected Him already, yes?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

[quiet dove]

QD,

But is there any instance where all of Israel acknowledged who the King is?

After all, the King is Jesus.

And some from Israel have rejected Him already, yes?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

Nope...but thats the whole point, there will be that time....the Millennial Kingdom when the sheep are separated from the goats and only the sheep enter in

[Warrioroftheword]

Some people believe in pre tribulation, post tribulation, and no rapture at all.

For a logically stand point I believe we will see part of the tribulation but not all. For the true children of the Lord we will be called up in the twinkling of an eye.

The reason I believe it will not be post or none at all is because Satan, or rather the anti Christ has to fool some people. Many will be swayed by him, but we must be removed from the picture when the anti Christ declares himself GOD inside the temple. The reason I say this is because the holy spirit will be removed from before him, if you are a child of the lord the holy spirit is inside of us. Thus you will be removed as well.

Another point to make is.... I mean seriously, HOW many of us know how the anti Christ will declare himself? and how many know how he is going to act for the most part? The second he goes in and declares himself GOD, EVERY christian in the world would point and say ANTI CHRIST ANTI CHRIST!. Thus he would lose a lot of credibility.

Another reason I believe this way is he, by he I mean the anti Christ needs to perform miracles. We all know Satan has no power to do things on such a grand scale as the father, so he lies and uses what the Lord has done.

I am sure he can perform small so called "miracles" but the biggest one he could ride on is the rapture. If he could flash a few miracles here and there and say he was the one that called them all up or hell he could say aliens did it (think of the alien movie where they say "dont look up") then he could persuaded people a lot easier.

[Love Fountain]

Some people believe in pre tribulation, post tribulation, and no rapture at all.

For a logically stand point I believe we will see part of the tribulation but not all. For the true children of the Lord we will be called up in the twinkling of an eye.

The reason I believe it will not be post or none at all is because Satan, or rather the anti Christ has to fool some people. Many will be swayed by him, but we must be removed from the picture when the anti Christ declares himself GOD inside the temple. The reason I say this is because the holy spirit will be removed from before him, if you are a child of the lord the holy spirit is inside of us. Thus you will be removed as well.

Another point to make is.... I mean seriously, HOW many of us know how the anti Christ will declare himself? and how many know how he is going to act for the most part? The second he goes in and declares himself GOD, EVERY christian in the world would point and say ANTI CHRIST ANTI CHRIST!. Thus he would lose a lot of credibility.

Another reason I believe this way is he, by he I mean the anti Christ needs to perform miracles. We all know Satan has no power to do things on such a grand scale as the father, so he lies and uses what the Lord has done.

I am sure he can perform small so called "miracles" but the biggest one he could ride on is the rapture. If he could flash a few miracles here and there and say he was the one that called them all up or hell he could say aliens did it (think of the alien movie where they say "dont look up") then he could persuaded people a lot easier.

There are two tribulations!

The first is the tribulation of satan, the copy cat pretending to be Christ! The falling away are those who are supposed to wait for the true Christ but fall away and follow the deceiver who transforms himself into a messenger/angel of light! They believe his supposed ministers of righteousness claiming to be righteous, who lead them right to satan because they are tossed to and fro by doctrines of men! There are none righteous except the true Christ himself!! It is written that the temple of God is the body of Christ! Yet how many are looking for a building of sticks and stones to be built again and don't even know they are the temple of God? It's very sad, but it is all written! Satan, pretending to be God will bring his wrath upon any that do not bow down to him and follow him! We have been warned over and over throughout the whole bible, from the serpent/shining one/satan in the garden of eden to the children in the book of Daniel being thrown in the fire, to the great book of Revelation of how it will all go down. Satan came for the bride in the garden and appeared as a messenger of light and he will do the same thing again! Stand against the devil and do everything you can to stand!!

The second tribulation is when the true Christ returns after satan is allowed to have his time.

2 Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Paul says we are to be virgins when the true Christ returns!


2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ


The secret rapture is making people not read for themselves and not be prepared for what is coming upon the earth for they have been fed error after error! Told that because they are Christians they will get rewards and be raptured away while Jews and the other people of the earth suffer Gods wrath! Time to wake up people, the alarm clock has been sounding for a long time! No more hitting that snooze button! Stop drinking the kool aid and read for yourselves!

2 Cor 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Don't believe them! They are bad for your health! Don't be one that hides when the true Christ returns just like when Adam and Eve try to hide from God in the garden after they had been seduced by the devil/serpent/messenger of light!


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Why would they hide? Because they had followed the lie, the deceiver who transformed himself into a messenger of light! They were no longer the virgins for the true Christ who were supposed to wait! Oh so sad!!


In the name of Jesus/Yeshua!
Love Fountain

[billy-brown 2]

Nope...but thats the whole point, there will be that time....the Millennial Kingdom when the sheep are separated from the goats and only the sheep enter in

Well, if the "kingdom indicated in bold above" is in our future from now, then that wouldn't that mean that the people represented in the verses below (in bold)
would get another shot at salvation after Christ came the second time?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

(I can't imagine that this is possible . . .)

[quiet dove]

Well, if the "kingdom indicated in bold above" is in our future from now, then that wouldn't that mean that the people represented in the verses below (in bold)
would get another shot at salvation after Christ came the second time?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

(I can't imagine that this is possible . . .)

Only if those others are going to come back to mortal life. There is time to be born and a time to die, the decision of faith must be made in between the two by all. Only those who are alive at the time and make a decision for Christ will enter the Millennial Kingdom. And even after Christ is present in visible glory upon the earth reigning, Revelation makes it clear all men born must make that same decision regarding faith.

[billy-brown 2]

Only if those others are going to come back to mortal life. There is time to be born and a time to die, the decision of faith must be made in between the two by all. Only those who are alive at the time and make a decision for Christ will enter the Millennial Kingdom. And even after Christ is present in visible glory upon the earth reigning, Revelation makes it clear all men born must make that same decision regarding faith.

QD,

However, the dead--all of them--will hear the voice of the Son of God at "an hour":

John 5 (from Jesus)
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

And since those "others" have rejected Christ already from Acts 28:24; they will be condemned:

Mark 16 (from Jesus)
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

And of course, Christ is the Judge; He is equipped indeed to exercise judgment:

John 5 (from Jesus)
26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

And of course, Paul concurs--even indicating that it will occur on a day:

Acts 17 (from Paul)
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

However, Christ will exercise judgment through resurrection; all men who are in the tombs will hear the voice of the Son of God and will experience a resurrection to life or judgment--and on a day:

John 5 (from Jesus)
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

And so, resurrection into life means "bodily immortality" for the faithful; the resurrection of judgment will be followed by condemnation--even a toss in the lake of fire:

Rev. 20 (from John)
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And the lake of fire is the furnace of fire from what Jesus indicated here:

Matt. 13 (from Jesus)
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And notice when that will happen: at the end of the age--indeed, the age that we currently live in.

So, I suppose that the "others" who do not believe of Acts 28:24 are waiting for judgment and the lake of fire only. But also (and this is even more critical), the "Millennium Kingdom" (as you would say) cannot have not people born during it. Why?

Because there will not be any marriage:

Luke 20 (from Jesus)
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

And those who are unworthy of "that" age have already been tossed in the furnace of fire already; this leaves only the righteous to "shine in the Kingdom" and so on:

Matt. 13
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Of course, this means that the opportunity for faith is right now during our current age:

Acts 10
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—
37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Does this make sense?

[SirToady]

Without hitting the Quote button and quoting virtually an entire page of text... This is in response to the Original Poster's original post when he wrote.....




"The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



"This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________



So are you trying to say that "The foundation of the Christian Faith" is whether you believe in a pre tribulational rapture?

Absolutely Not! Who would dare do such a thing? I apologize if that was the impression you got from my post.

[SirToady]

I wish you had a back-up verse to support your view

II Thessalonians 2

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what (the Holy Spirit) withholdeth that he (Antichrist) might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Holy Spirit) who now letteth (restrains) will let (restrain), until he (Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way.

[aftertheflood]

I for one, reject all of the tenants of Dispensationalism as being unsupported by both scripture and historical church teaching. It is clear that none of the Early Church Father, and certainly none of the Apostolic Fathers held to a pre-trib view. And following the adage that it cannot mean to you what it did not mean to them as a general rule the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is called into insurmountable question. The views of the early church, and through curch history were either post tribulation moderate futurist or Amillinnial. Mine is that of a moderate futurist. An excellent discourse, in short form can be found here;

http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles...chat_ladd.html

And a down to earth layman's study on the book of Revelation by my Advisor from Fuller is found here;

http://gen2rev.com/revelation/sessions/