some questions I'm struggling with

[LookingUp]

I've read thru all the posts and thought no wonder the Muslims get confused, I'm confused! You have said in simple terms what I believe is true. No need for a thousand words. Thank you.

Thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it. :-)

[Raybob]

Agreed, that Word is who was created before the foundations of the world. He was the right hand of God. ...

Don't forget, the Word also tells us plainly in John 1:1 that "the Word WAS God".

Since the new testament, we know that Jesus IS Lord. In the old testament, they simply referred to Him as Lord.

[cantcme2]

thanks for all the replies

soooooooooo.... back to my original question

i understand everyone saying that God judges people justly (the 6 month old chinese baby) and people who do not know Christ can go to heaven. But doesn't that go against when Jesus says hes the ONLY way to the Father and the verses that say Jesus is the only way to eternal life?

[LookingUp]

thanks for all the replies

soooooooooo.... back to my original question

i understand everyone saying that God judges people justly (the 6 month old chinese baby) and people who do not know Christ can go to heaven. But doesn't that go against when Jesus says hes the ONLY way to the Father and the verses that say Jesus is the only way to eternal life?

How would that go against it? He's always been the only way.

[Traveler]

Well looking back at the Isaiah 44 verse again, there is one trend that needs to be clarified because it is repeated over and over concerning many subjects in scripture. If there is one thing about God it is that he is consistent and employs the same methods of operation in his dealing with his creation.


Below are a selection of verses that state quite categorically that it was God alone that brought the Israelites out of their bondage in the land of Egypt. The act of bringing the Israelites out of Egypt in the account in Exodus is attributed to God alone. No one else is attributed with this act. All the power displayed that brought the plagues upon Egypt came from God and it was God that drowned the Egyptian army in the closing of the Red Sea. But the last verse in this list confirms the one from Isaiah 44: and is placed there as a comparison to the verses speaking of the events in Exodus.

Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Lev 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Lev 22:31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.
Lev 22:32 Neither shall ye profane my holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the LORD which hallow you,
Lev 22:33 That brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD.

Lev 25:38 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.

Lev 25:55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

Deu 26:8 And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:

Jer 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.

Now fortunately we know a lot more about the events of Exodus than we know about the events involved in creation. We know that there was the involvement of Moses. Yes indeed Moses really could not do much more than look after his Father in Laws sheep out in the desert but God did make him a god to Pharaoh and did work through him to bring the Israelites out.

Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In other words God fashioned Moses into the tool that he would use to come against Pharaoh and he would use that tool in such a way as to demonstrate his power and his might. We read all about what Moses did under Gods directions and Moses now lends his name to the Laws handed down because they came through him. The God can make a god out of whomever he wants for as long as he wants. Moses was Gods outstretched arm fashioned for this specific purpose.

The same principle applies to the creation events. The claims Jesus makes about himself in his preincarnate form as the Word Of God is accurate and a good record of the events that transpired during the beginning.

[Michelle71]

Above all lords? I'm not sure you know what "Lord" means. Jesus IS God and Lord.


Col 1:12-17 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Seems someone didn't like my last post, and it got deleted. At any rate, this is the verse that needs to be understood..

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who are the lords that the Lord Jesus is over? Right by the Word of God all things were created from the power of the Only God above all gods.

[amazzin]

JW teaching is only allowed in the Areopagus forum.

Please review the rules

Seems someone didn't like my last post, and it got deleted. At any rate, this is the verse that needs to be understood..


Who are the lords that the Lord Jesus is over? Right by the Word of God all things were created from the power of the Only God above all gods.

[Michelle71]

I do not understand. I've not been to a church of anykind in 10 years. Have only been studying the bible and praying. Have not studied the JW religion and do not care to either.

Only bringing the scriptures out for discussion and debate. Sorry if that is not allowed here. It seems to be based in fear that the discussion isn't left intact and discussed scripturally leaving all preconceived notions aside.

[Raybob]

Seems someone didn't like my last post, and it got deleted. At any rate, this is the verse that needs to be understood..

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who are the lords that the Lord Jesus is over? Right by the Word of God all things were created from the power of the Only God above all gods.

"Lord" means ruler. There are many "lords" on the earth. Every slave owner is a "lord". Every boss of every company is essientally "lord" of that company. Everyone that works for that company does what their "lord" commands or they are fired. Every Christian does what Jesus commands, or they get a far worse eternal destiny than just being fired from a job.

Jesus was and is God, according to the bible. JW theory is that Jesus never existed prior to being born on this earth. You seem to be claiming their theory as true but countless scriptures prove that to be false.

[LookingUp]

Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Lev 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Lev 22:33 That brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD…

Well, Yahweh did bring them up out of the land. Yahweh was in the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night. Moses, who brought them out, would not have known where to go or what to do without Yahweh bringing them out.

but God did make him a god to Pharaoh and did work through him to bring the Israelites out.

Yahweh didn’t make Moses Yahweh, though. Yahweh made him “as a god” or “ruler.” The title “god” is not a Yahweh-only title.

Yahweh’s actions are not only attributed to Jesus as if he performed them, Yahweh’s titles are attributed to Jesus; titles that are Yahweh-only titles. When Yahweh says He is the “first and last, besides me there is no god,” He intentionally ties the phrase “first and last” to “there is no god besides me.” When the “first and last” phrase is applied to Jesus, the intentionally connected fact “there is no god besides me” also applies to Jesus. Thus, we must conclude that Jesus is Yahweh. We can’t apply a Yahweh-only phrase to anyone other than Yahweh. That would be blasphemy.

[LookingUp]

The Word of God was the first of all creatures.

Why would God need a “creature” through whom to create? He can’t create by Himself?

What Scripture makes you think Jesus was created before his birth?

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, He is the Word of God made flesh, He is the craftsman of God, He is the image of God, He came as a representative of God.

Why is Yahweh sharing His glory with “another” when Yahweh claims He will not share His glory with another?

1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )

Eternal life was with the Father. John doesn’t say “Jesus” was with the Father. John says eternal life manifested itself. You read into it when you say “eternal life” was a creation of God (i.e. pre-incarnate Jesus).

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The “word” was with God in the beginning. John doesn’t say “Jesus” was with God in the beginning. You read into it when you say “the word” was a creation of God (i.e. pre-incarnate Jesus).

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things were made by “the word” of God. John doesn’t say the created pre-incarnate Jesus made all things.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exactly. When you see the Son, you see the Father. When you see Jesus, you don’t see Jesus. The point of Jesus’ existence is to reflect the Father.

[Traveler]

JW teaching is only allowed in the Areopagus forum.

Please review the rules

Michelle 71 is not promoting JW teachings.

She is simply pointing out what the original Apostles taught as recorded in the New Testament.

[Raybob]

...Eternal life was with the Father. John doesn’t say “Jesus” was with the Father. John says eternal life manifested itself. You read into it when you say “eternal life” was a creation of God (i.e. pre-incarnate Jesus).

The “word” was with God in the beginning. John doesn’t say “Jesus” was with God in the beginning. You read into it when you say “the word” was a creation of God (i.e. pre-incarnate Jesus).

What is read "into" the text is found a few verses farther down the chapter.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:10-14)

All things were made by “the word” of God. ...

Then why does the bible say, "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ... and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" ???

[LookingUp]

What is read "into" the text is found a few verses farther down the chapter.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:10-14)



Then why does the bible say, "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ... and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" ???

Yahweh created all things. Jesus created all things (Col. 1:16). Jesus is Yahweh as a man. Michelle says that Yahweh created a pre-incarnate Jesus and then this pre-incarnate Jesus became a man.

[Michelle71]

"Lord" means ruler. There are many "lords" on the earth. Every slave owner is a "lord". Every boss of every company is essientally "lord" of that company. Everyone that works for that company does what their "lord" commands or they are fired. Every Christian does what Jesus commands, or they get a far worse eternal destiny than just being fired from a job.

Jesus was and is God, according to the bible. JW theory is that Jesus never existed prior to being born on this earth. You seem to be claiming their theory as true but countless scriptures prove that to be false.

No idea how you came to that conclusion. Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh. The Word was with God from the beginning, even Jesus himself said that he was before Abraham. Jesus is the Word of God that God used as the craftsman at HIS side for the creation of all things. The firstborn of all creatures. So much scripture is there to prove that, and when it is brought out accusations fly about being a JW???

God works THROUGH His creation. If this were not so, then our prayers would not avail much, angels would not be doing their thing, and Jesus would not be our High Priest making intercession for us to the Father who is sat in the Holy of Holies on high. I am not "reading into" the text of scripture. Am simply reading it!

There are many lords, but One Lord above all of them, and ONE God above all gods above the Lord that is above lords. lol
In other words, God is above the Word of God who is Jesus who came in the flesh, we (who are seen as "gods" although appointed to die as men, and who are JOINT HEIRS with Christ) are below the Word of God who is Jesus who came in the flesh. Or would you like to deny what the scriptures say about us ruling with the Lord Jesus at His return?

There seems to be an interesting thing going on where the Hebrew LORD who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is being equated with the word Lord of the Greek in the NT out of context. Will have to pray on that for awhile and see if some clarity can be brought out about it.

This side of eternity, I think of us as in a nursery, in training for better things to come as this passage indicates (and many more) our place is by the right hand side of Jesus who is the Word made flesh.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The question for those who believe that Jesus did not exist in pre-incarnate form, that He is the incarnation of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (rather than the Word of God who was WITH God at the beginning) is this: Are we joint heirs of the Word of God made flesh (Jesus), or are we joint heirs of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Or are we heirs of the Highest God, and joint heirs of His Christ as it is written in the scriptures?

If Jesus is the full incarnation of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then would that not mean there is no spirit left of God? That God Himself fully dwells in the body of Jesus, and that when He returns to rule over all creation that there is no other God on High above Him? This is beyond confusing, makes no sense, and is what those Egyptian's who worshipped Pharoah believed. It is what Buddhists believe in all their avatars.