some questions I'm struggling with

[cantcme2]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

[AngelNSC]

Wow!...you have asked some great questions...I do wonder about those types of things also...and sorry to say...I dont have any answers for you, but wanted to let you know..that those are very interesting questions..and I do hope a Pastor on this forum or someone with alot of Biblical knowledge will be able to help you with the answers...but I know, as for me, I will probably always have tons of questions about this or that...and never get the answers this side of Heaven...but, just wanted to let ya know...I wonder about those types of things also...I just "think" too much!...God Bless You Always!

[jesse]

I will take question number 4.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:2

The "Spirit of God" referring to one aspect of the trinity.

Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?” Joshua 5:13-14

Joshua fell down and worshiped this man and called him Lord. Since the bible does not encourage angel worship or the worship of men, it is safe to say this is in fact Jesus. Also, Abraham had a similar experience with three "angels" one of which remained in his tent. It never says he left.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man" the "us" refers to all three aspects of the Godhead... Father, Son and spirit. Similarly, in Genesis 11:7 God speaks within himself.


Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Genesis 11:7

"Let us go down" God speaking within himself about these actions.

Again in John we see that same idea.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3

This is speaking about Jesus being the Word and having his part in creation. Also, it is interesting that God said "let there be" over and over during the creative process; He simply spoke things into existence. Now Jesus is said to be the Word.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,^d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Word became flesh. Unmistakably, Christ.

[tim_from_pa]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

Pertaining to your questions, they are good ones.

I will answer scripturally:

1) No. They do not got to hell necessarily. You have to know God's Plan of human redemption in the feast days. Many who did not hear the gospel will be saved on the eighth day after the feast of Tabernacles aka :the "Great White Throne Judgement" when the books will be opened according to Revelation and they will have a chance to accept what Christ did.

2) No, Hell is "eternal punishment" i.e Hell is a permanant decision as to the fate of one. However, eternal punishment means that the action of what happened is eternal, not the suffering! If a person suffered forever, then that would be "eternal life" in torment --- a doctrine the bible denies but rather says death. Rather, the bible says that the soul that sins will die! It is my belief that relatively few will experience this throughout the varous resurrections when only the die-hard will totally rebel against God and He will decide to mercifully annihilate those few in hell fire.

3) God originally created Satan to be guardian over this earth. He was prideful and fell and thus created a superior man-being, to be like God, to supercede Satan. Without Satan, I'm not sure he would have sinned, but it was because of the battle of the throne that man did sin, But then again, without Satan, there would be no battle and sin would not be an issue.

4) I see where you're coming from. God is a family. It Started with the Father and Son. Later on, those in Christ will also be sons.

5) That seems to be a different topic altogether. I am familiar with the "canopy theory". I think it is possible in that all that theory states is that the earth simply had a different atmosphere. Because of that, carbon dating cannot be assured because the premise of carbon dating is that the atmosphere as we know it was the same (of course it was not).

For those who think that my answers need scripture, I will be happy to supply them.

[HoboTone]

A little advice. You should probably make each question into it's own thread. These are all great questions, and if you posted them individually, they would no doubt spin some lively discussion.

[markedward]

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

The Bible doesn't address this issue directly, but my own opinion is that it implies that those who do not specifically hear about Jesus, or never know the 'real' Jesus (as opposed to a distortion of who he is) will be judged by God by how they acted in accordance with the inherent morality God put in them. All humans have a sense of right and wrong, good and evil. I believe that God will justly and mercifully judge those who acted in line with the teachings of Jesus, even if they did not know him by name.

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

The majority of Christians will probably tell you that, yes, hell is eternal torment. I believe that this teaching is terribly wrong. Scripture teaches that the fate of the wicked is death. To get around this, many Christians change the definition of 'death' from 'death' to 'eternal torment'. The point is that, either way, God will justly punish the wicked for their unrepentant evildoing, and I believe Scripture consistently portrays this ultimate end as being a period of torment that culminates with death.

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth.

We don't know exactly what would have happened, but I would guess that, yes, humans would have eventually sinned... the story simply would have gone a little differently.

why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were?

The Bible is silent on this issue. It doesn't say that God sent the satan to earth or anything like that. The only details it gives are that a serpent tempted Adam and Eve into sin, and that the satan was a part of the temptation brought by the serpent. Other than that, we're never given exact details on when the satan 'fell'.

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

This is a hugely difficult issue to deal with. Just to put it quickly: it is impossible to fully understand the trinity, even if you believe in it. The concept of 'trinity' defies logic as far as human understanding can go.

That said, I do not believe that 'trinity' is the most appropriate way to look at who God is. To be clear, the Scripture explicitly teaches that Yahweh (the name of the God of the Bible) is God and that he is 'one'. Scripture never, ever refers to God as 'three' or anything like that. What we are told is that God is the Father, and Jesus is the Son of God.

We are also shown that Jesus is the 'image of God' and that he 'was in the form of God' and that he is the 'exact character of [God's] substance'. We are shown that in every way Yahweh is the one true God (especially in Isaiah 40-54), the New Testament consistently describes Jesus in the same way. As such, we can see that Jesus is Yahweh as man.

And, throughout the Bible, the 'holy spirit' is shown to be the 'spirit of God' and the 'spirit of Christ'. In some cases the phrase 'holy spirit' is used to represent God's personal presence, or his creative power.

So, yes, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God. However that is. But I do not believe that saying 'God is three persons' is a proper way of describing what Scripture shows us.

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

This isn't science, it's pseudo-science based entirely on speculation and guesswork. Getting into this would take a lot of time and writing. If this is something you're really interested in, I would suggest checking out two things: one, the website BioLogos, and two, the book The Lost World of Genesis One.

[Raybob]

...

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypADan8KI60

Here, Kent Hovind explains the ice canopy theory very well. It's a long video but worth it if you're curious.

[Traveler]

I'll Take number one

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now that event will take place after the millennium reign. Those that have been redeemed through Christ will be judged with Christ and the result is that we will not have to face this particular judgement where it is God himself doing the judging. Yes there are indications that some will be coming through this if their names are recorded in the book of life but it probably will not be very many as they will have no proxy for their sins and will be required to stand on their own personnel merits. We are looking at people like Job or Enoch or Noah as the type that make it.

As for question number 2. Well that passage also tells of hells ultimate fate as well.

[Raybob]

I'll Take number one



Now that event will take place after the millennium reign. Those that have been redeemed through Christ will be judged with Christ and the result is that we will not have to face this particular judgement where it is God himself doing the judging. Yes there are indications that some will be coming through this if their names are recorded in the book of life but it probably will not be very many ...

If "some" come through because their names are recorded, there's no reason in the world to think that anyone does not. All come before the judgment seat. Don't forget Jesus IS God.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Jud 1:14b-15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[Traveler]

If "some" come through because their names are recorded, there's no reason in the world to think that anyone does not. All come before the judgment seat. Don't forget Jesus IS God.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Jud 1:14b-15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No there is a diffeence

God is God.

Jesus is the Messiah in the old Hebrew or the Christ in the Greek. You cannot mix the attributes of the two and try to make them one.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Jesus himself made the distinction between himself and his Father

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

In fact just do a word search on "right hand" and you will see all the verses that proclaim that Jesus is at the right hand of God not on the throne of God.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

God is not going to be sitting on the throne of David. The Messiah is. Gods throne is above it all.

[Raybob]

No there is a diffeence

Then you don't believe John 1.

Joh 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the Messiah in the old Hebrew or the Christ in the Greek. You cannot mix the attributes of the two and try to make them one.



Jesus himself made the distinction between himself and his Father


In fact just do a word search on "right hand" and you will see all the verses that proclaim that Jesus is at the right hand of God not on the throne of God.


God is not going to be sitting on the throne of David. The Messiah is. Gods throne is above it all.

God has been sitting on the 'throne of David', unless you don't believe Acts 2 also.

Act 2:29-32 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

[MaryFreeman]

Not trying to be bossy or anything.... I am just wondering if starting a debate wouldn't just confuse the OP? Perhaps we should all just post the answers we think are the best and let the OP decide what helps them?

[Traveler]

Then you don't believe John 1.

Joh 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God has been sitting on the 'throne of David', unless you don't believe Acts 2 also.

Act 2:29-32 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Of course I believe John 1.1. All that has happened is that you have misinterpreted it. Or are you saying that a few sentences down John is saying that he has seen God just because he has seen Christ.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Acts 2;29 is absolutely correct. Jesus is indeed going to be sitting on the throne of David. God already has his throne since before the beginning.

[Raybob]

Of course I believe John 1.1. All that has happened is that you have misinterpreted it. Or are you saying that a few sentences down John is saying that he has seen God just because he has seen Christ.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Keep that verse in context and you know that was John the baptist's reply BEFORE he saw and baptized God (Jesus).

Joh 1:15-29 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. ) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? ... The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Acts 2;29 is absolutely correct. Jesus is indeed going to be sitting on the throne of David. God already has his throne since before the beginning.

Context again. Acts 2:32-36 explains this was a past-tense event.

Act 2:32-36 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[gringo300]

I concluded a long time ago that I rightfully and justly earned eternal punishment in Hell.

I had been informed that a way out of what I rightfully and justly deserve was offered and I decided to accept the offer.

When I did many of those things, I was in a VERY negative environment, surrounded by people who were VERY negative influences on me. I thought deeply through things and asked myself if maybe if I hadn't been in that environment and surrounded by those people, maybe I wouldn't have done the things I did. You know what? I concluded that beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would have done many of the things I'd done anyway. Some things I might not have done, BUT I understood right and wrong well enough to know I shouldn't have done those things. I have no excuse.

Am I angry at the people who were a negative influence on me? ABSOLUTELY. That doesn't mean I blame them for my own choices.