some questions I'm struggling with

[cantcme2]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

[AngelNSC]

Wow!...you have asked some great questions...I do wonder about those types of things also...and sorry to say...I dont have any answers for you, but wanted to let you know..that those are very interesting questions..and I do hope a Pastor on this forum or someone with alot of Biblical knowledge will be able to help you with the answers...but I know, as for me, I will probably always have tons of questions about this or that...and never get the answers this side of Heaven...but, just wanted to let ya know...I wonder about those types of things also...I just "think" too much!...God Bless You Always!

[tim_from_pa]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

Pertaining to your questions, they are good ones.

I will answer scripturally:

1) No. They do not got to hell necessarily. You have to know God's Plan of human redemption in the feast days. Many who did not hear the gospel will be saved on the eighth day after the feast of Tabernacles aka :the "Great White Throne Judgement" when the books will be opened according to Revelation and they will have a chance to accept what Christ did.

2) No, Hell is "eternal punishment" i.e Hell is a permanant decision as to the fate of one. However, eternal punishment means that the action of what happened is eternal, not the suffering! If a person suffered forever, then that would be "eternal life" in torment --- a doctrine the bible denies but rather says death. Rather, the bible says that the soul that sins will die! It is my belief that relatively few will experience this throughout the varous resurrections when only the die-hard will totally rebel against God and He will decide to mercifully annihilate those few in hell fire.

3) God originally created Satan to be guardian over this earth. He was prideful and fell and thus created a superior man-being, to be like God, to supercede Satan. Without Satan, I'm not sure he would have sinned, but it was because of the battle of the throne that man did sin, But then again, without Satan, there would be no battle and sin would not be an issue.

4) I see where you're coming from. God is a family. It Started with the Father and Son. Later on, those in Christ will also be sons.

5) That seems to be a different topic altogether. I am familiar with the "canopy theory". I think it is possible in that all that theory states is that the earth simply had a different atmosphere. Because of that, carbon dating cannot be assured because the premise of carbon dating is that the atmosphere as we know it was the same (of course it was not).

For those who think that my answers need scripture, I will be happy to supply them.

[jesse]

I will take question number 4.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:2

The "Spirit of God" referring to one aspect of the trinity.

Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?” Joshua 5:13-14

Joshua fell down and worshiped this man and called him Lord. Since the bible does not encourage angel worship or the worship of men, it is safe to say this is in fact Jesus. Also, Abraham had a similar experience with three "angels" one of which remained in his tent. It never says he left.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man" the "us" refers to all three aspects of the Godhead... Father, Son and spirit. Similarly, in Genesis 11:7 God speaks within himself.


Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Genesis 11:7

"Let us go down" God speaking within himself about these actions.

Again in John we see that same idea.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3

This is speaking about Jesus being the Word and having his part in creation. Also, it is interesting that God said "let there be" over and over during the creative process; He simply spoke things into existence. Now Jesus is said to be the Word.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,^d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Word became flesh. Unmistakably, Christ.

[HoboTone]

A little advice. You should probably make each question into it's own thread. These are all great questions, and if you posted them individually, they would no doubt spin some lively discussion.

[markedward]

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

The Bible doesn't address this issue directly, but my own opinion is that it implies that those who do not specifically hear about Jesus, or never know the 'real' Jesus (as opposed to a distortion of who he is) will be judged by God by how they acted in accordance with the inherent morality God put in them. All humans have a sense of right and wrong, good and evil. I believe that God will justly and mercifully judge those who acted in line with the teachings of Jesus, even if they did not know him by name.

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

The majority of Christians will probably tell you that, yes, hell is eternal torment. I believe that this teaching is terribly wrong. Scripture teaches that the fate of the wicked is death. To get around this, many Christians change the definition of 'death' from 'death' to 'eternal torment'. The point is that, either way, God will justly punish the wicked for their unrepentant evildoing, and I believe Scripture consistently portrays this ultimate end as being a period of torment that culminates with death.

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth.

We don't know exactly what would have happened, but I would guess that, yes, humans would have eventually sinned... the story simply would have gone a little differently.

why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were?

The Bible is silent on this issue. It doesn't say that God sent the satan to earth or anything like that. The only details it gives are that a serpent tempted Adam and Eve into sin, and that the satan was a part of the temptation brought by the serpent. Other than that, we're never given exact details on when the satan 'fell'.

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

This is a hugely difficult issue to deal with. Just to put it quickly: it is impossible to fully understand the trinity, even if you believe in it. The concept of 'trinity' defies logic as far as human understanding can go.

That said, I do not believe that 'trinity' is the most appropriate way to look at who God is. To be clear, the Scripture explicitly teaches that Yahweh (the name of the God of the Bible) is God and that he is 'one'. Scripture never, ever refers to God as 'three' or anything like that. What we are told is that God is the Father, and Jesus is the Son of God.

We are also shown that Jesus is the 'image of God' and that he 'was in the form of God' and that he is the 'exact character of [God's] substance'. We are shown that in every way Yahweh is the one true God (especially in Isaiah 40-54), the New Testament consistently describes Jesus in the same way. As such, we can see that Jesus is Yahweh as man.

And, throughout the Bible, the 'holy spirit' is shown to be the 'spirit of God' and the 'spirit of Christ'. In some cases the phrase 'holy spirit' is used to represent God's personal presence, or his creative power.

So, yes, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God. However that is. But I do not believe that saying 'God is three persons' is a proper way of describing what Scripture shows us.

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

This isn't science, it's pseudo-science based entirely on speculation and guesswork. Getting into this would take a lot of time and writing. If this is something you're really interested in, I would suggest checking out two things: one, the website BioLogos, and two, the book The Lost World of Genesis One.

[Raybob]

...

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypADan8KI60

Here, Kent Hovind explains the ice canopy theory very well. It's a long video but worth it if you're curious.

[Traveler]

I'll Take number one

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now that event will take place after the millennium reign. Those that have been redeemed through Christ will be judged with Christ and the result is that we will not have to face this particular judgement where it is God himself doing the judging. Yes there are indications that some will be coming through this if their names are recorded in the book of life but it probably will not be very many as they will have no proxy for their sins and will be required to stand on their own personnel merits. We are looking at people like Job or Enoch or Noah as the type that make it.

As for question number 2. Well that passage also tells of hells ultimate fate as well.

[Vanderhoven7]

I'll take question # 2

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

There are 4 views on hell that I am aware of: The Purgatorial view, The Metaphorical view, The Literal view and, The Conditionalist view. A great book, published by Zondervan goes by the title: Four Views on Hell which features a debate style look at all views.

I hold to the conditionalist view which sees "the lake of fire" which death will be thrust into, as symbolic of destruction.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

[MaryFreeman]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

And it would be.... If predestination wasn't coupled with foreknowledge.... But it is.... It's like this....

I can walk up to my mother with a coke in one hand and a pepsi in the other.... I can hold them both out equally.... And my mother would choose the pepsi.... I didn't tell her what to choose.... I didn't force her to choose one or the other.... I did however know what she would choose....

God is like that....

Jer 1:4-7 LITV Then the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, (5) I knew you before I formed you in the belly; and before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations. (6) Then I said, Ah, Lord Jehovah! Behold, I do not know how to speak for I am a boy. (7) But Jehovah said to me, Do not say, I am a boy; for you shall go to all that I shall send you. And whatever I command you, you shall speak.

Here the Lord is telling Jeremiah that He knew him before he ever existed.... That means He knew everything Jeremiah was going to do and say before he ever arrived on earth.... He knew all of it.... And when Jeremiah tried to tell God what he knew of himself.... God told Jeremiah what He knew.... He knew Jeremiah would do and say whatever He wanted him to do and say.... Verse 7 is not a commandment.... It is a prophecy....

God knows all of us.... Even those in remote tribal situations.... And He even gave them the opportunity to know Him....

Rom 1:18-20 LITV For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, (19) because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them. (20) For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

What we don't know is the individual state of their hearts.... Because God has made Himself manifest in many ways to His entire creation.... We cannot take all the explaining and answering for the entirety of creation on ourselves.... Because we cannot see inside mens hearts.... We just trust God concerning those we cannot reach....

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

No hell is not eternal torture.... The lake of fire is....

Rev 20:14-15 LITV And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. (15) And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said their worm does not die.... The torment is eternal.... But one thing I find fascinating.... No one ever speaks of the fact that the lake of fire was not created for human beings.... I would think that was a point that someone somewhere ought to drive home....

Mat 25:41 LITV Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

It is not out of Gods character to allow something He knows is not good.... He allowed the Jews a king when He knew the detriment of it.... He allowed peoples hearts to harden though He knew it would make them vain and hard to reach.... He allowed many things.... Because He wouldn't be God if He didn't....

Deu 30:15-19 LITV Behold, I have set before you today life and good and death and evil, (16) in that I am commanding you today to love Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commands and His statutes, and His judgments, and you shall live and multiply, and Jehovah your God shall bless you in the land where you are going in, to possess it. (17) But if you turn away your heart, and you do not listen, and are drawn on, even you will bow down to other gods, and serve them; (18) I have declared to you today that you shall certainly perish. You shall not prolong your days in the land to which you are crossing the Jordan, to go in there to possess it. (19) I call Heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, that you may live, you and your seed,

God has always given the choice to mankind.... It has always been our prerogative.... We have a free will precisely because He wants us to love Him of our own choice.... Because it isn't love any other way....
[quote=cantcme2]

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

Wow.... What a thought provoking question.... I need to study this out.... I do know we weren't created before satan was thrown out.... And that is about the only bit of an answer I can provide at this time....

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

Not really.... There really are three distinct personalities inside the Godhead.... And One has a human body.... Although it is glorified.... Look at Stephens vision.... He says that he sees Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father.... So he saw two of the three.... And so did OT folks.... Although they never knew it.... They thought He was an Angel....

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

Real explanations.... I must find the study for you that scientists did on how things grew with a water canopy protecting them from the harmful rays of the sun.... I will find it and post a link....

[LookingUp]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

I haven’t read through this thread, so maybe your questions have been sufficiently answered, but I’ll answer according to what I know at this time in my journey with Scripture.

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

You’re right, that’s clearly not fair, and since we know God is perfectly just, we can know that absolutely no one is predestined to go to hell. If one must hear of the gospel of Christ as we know it today before one dies in order to be saved, how were Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Esther, David, and Ruth saved? Paul tells us that God “made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us” (Acts 17:26-27). This tells me that each man, whenever and wherever he may find himself on the face of the earth, has ample opportunity to seek, grope for, and find God. God is within reach of every single man on the face of the earth and always has been within reach. So, how do they know of a God they’ve never heard of before? Paul tells us, “that which is known about God is evident within them [man]; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:19-20). Each man has an opportunity to seek and find God, because God does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). I’m not certain how these many people who’ve never heard the name of Christ are judged, but Paul gives us a clue. In Romans 2, he writes that even the non-Jew is accepted by God if he “keeps the requirements of the Law” (Rom. 2:26). This was unheard of—the jaws of the Jews probably fell a few inches in disbelief, because they had always believed that one must be physically circumcised and follow the customs of Moses to be accepted by God. But Paul informs them (& us) that all this outward stuff is futile if it is not done with a changed heart (Romans 2:28-29). This puts us back to Romans 1:19 where Paul says that God has made Himself known “within” each man. I believe that for the man who has not heard of the God of Abraham and the God of Christ, it is on this he will be judged. A man is judged on how he responds to what he knows and what has been revealed to his heart.

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

I don’t believe Scripture teaches the concept of eternal torment—mental or physical. There’s plenty of evidence demonstrating that the final destination of the wicked is annihilation. I could send you a PM if you’d like.

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

I think the answers to this one will be mostly speculative rather than backed by Scripture. I don’t know how we’d know for sure if man would have sinned without Satan’s temptation. I, personally, imagine that given long enough and enough opportunity, man would have eventually sinned at some point, even without Satan’s temptation. My general view at this time is that most angels are created with free will just like human beings are. They inhabit the spiritual realm and we inhabit the physical realm, but both realms impact the other. As spiritual beings, they can influence the physical realm (I’m not completely sure how this is done). As physical beings (& partly spiritual), we can influence the spiritual realm (I believe this can be done through prayer, at the least). Our influence over the spiritual realm (through prayer) can influence our own physical realm. I think there are so many unanswered questions in this area (the Bible is either silent or ambiguous) that we’re left to speculate on much of it, but this is my general take at this time.

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

I think the way you’re thinking of it is just fine. I also believe the trinity answer is lacking. From what I understand, God/Yahweh is spirit (John 4:24) and He dwells in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16). Jesus is man and is the image of that invisible God (Colossians 1:15). So, the Father is God/Yahweh as spirit (infinite, transcendent), and the Son of God is God/Yahweh as man (finite, knowable). Because of Jesus, we know this invisible, unknowable God in the most complete, optimal way possible for finite beings. The spirit of God/Christ is His presence with man. To have intimate relationship with Christ Jesus is to know the infinite, unknowable God in the most complete and perfect way. And the Spirit is responsible for optimizing this relational process. That’s my take, anyway.

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

Again, I believe the answer to this question is outside of Scripture, so you’ll have to pick through the various answers. I used to assume a young earth perspective until recently. Now, I’m just not so sure. And I’m not so sure it matters anyway. What’s the purpose of the Bible? To answer scientific questions? Or to answer spiritual questions?

[Saved7]

hey everyone, i posted this in the apologetic page but i think its the wrong place for it. i am Christian but there are some issues/questions that have kind of bothering me. if you could help me with the answers that would be great, sorry if it rambles a bit:

1.do people who never get the chance to know Christ go to hell? the doctrine i have always heard is that only those who believe in Jesus go to heaven. if that is true, what about, for example, the tribal people in Africa who live and die never hearing about Jesus? i started thinking about this because i was talking with people about the whole subject of 'predestination', and it made me think that people who live in those areas are, in a sense, predestined to go to hell since they are born never having a chance to know Christ. if they do go to hell, why would God create some people who literally have no other option than hell? seems unfair

You have to remember that God doesn't actually need us to reach the lost. There are plenty of people in closed nations that hear the gospel message from Christ Himself. You also have to remember that God is righteous, therefore, He will not condemn those who never heard and had no idea that what they were doing is wrong. HOWEVER, it just may be that there are some who will never hear it, but God knows their hearts and knows that if they heard it they would not repent anyway. God knows all things and judges rightly all the time.

2. is hell really eternal torture? i know its 'torment', but i always viewed it as mental tornment knowing that you ruined your chance for eternal life with God. the images of people in hell being tortured i have a hard time believing - it seems out of God's character to allow us to go there. i know the whole "we send ourselves there" argument, but it still seems out of His character

Why does it seem out of character for Him? Does He not know just how wicked we are? He knows this better than we do. Beside that, God's character definitely doesn't want us to go there, but as a righteous Judge He MUST judge sin, and if we don't accept Jesus as the payment for that sin, then we have no choice but to pay for that sin ourselves. HOWEVER, remember that if He WANTED to send us there, then He would not have provided a way of escape in the sacrifice of Christ. If we reject that, then we are guilty of crucifying Him. And while we do believe it is a place of torment, some believe that eventually hell will be destroyed, along with all of it's occupants, in the lake of fire. But not before everyone who goes there gets their time of suffering and paying for their sins.

3. would humans have sinned without satan's temptation in the garden? the reason i ask is the doctrine i was always told is that satan was thrown out of heaven to earth. why did God send satan to where we, his prized creation, were living? if He didnt want us to sin why send satan to where we were? or is satans 'purpose' to provide an alternative to God, similar to the book of Job?

As much as I would love to get into this, I think that it's best for you to get a good grip on these other issues first, because this can get pretty deep.

4. i overall struggle with the concept of the trinity. reading through the old testament God clearly says over and over that there is one God and i struggle with the three persons in one God aspect, mainly because it seems so different from anything described in the OT. i sometime think the trinity is God's manifestation in different 'realms' (father - spiritual realm, son - physical realm, holy spirit - inside humans). is there a better way to think of it?

This is probably a question best suited for our Areopagus or Controversial sections elsewhere in this forum.

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

thanks

NOthing lazy about learning all that stuff.

Above all this, I would suggest that you seek to know God more, through prayer, reading the Bible and fasting, and you will come to understand and accept whatever God teaches you.

[Raybob]

I'll Take number one



Now that event will take place after the millennium reign. Those that have been redeemed through Christ will be judged with Christ and the result is that we will not have to face this particular judgement where it is God himself doing the judging. Yes there are indications that some will be coming through this if their names are recorded in the book of life but it probably will not be very many ...

If "some" come through because their names are recorded, there's no reason in the world to think that anyone does not. All come before the judgment seat. Don't forget Jesus IS God.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Jud 1:14b-15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[Traveler]

If "some" come through because their names are recorded, there's no reason in the world to think that anyone does not. All come before the judgment seat. Don't forget Jesus IS God.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Jud 1:14b-15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, (15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No there is a diffeence

God is God.

Jesus is the Messiah in the old Hebrew or the Christ in the Greek. You cannot mix the attributes of the two and try to make them one.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Jesus himself made the distinction between himself and his Father

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

In fact just do a word search on "right hand" and you will see all the verses that proclaim that Jesus is at the right hand of God not on the throne of God.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

God is not going to be sitting on the throne of David. The Messiah is. Gods throne is above it all.

[DurbanDude]

5. i find that often 'the water canopy'/flood is used as an answer for alot of scientific challenges against the bible. the water canopy is the pre-flood atmosphere in genesis 1:6. some examples: carbon dating isnt accurate because the water canopy/pre-flood atmosphere ages things different, skeletons of pre-evolution men (cavemen) are just the remains of the pre-flood people who lives hundreds of years, etc. are these just lazy reasons or actual explainations to these questions?

I believe the so-called water canopy was merely higher concentrations of water vapour in the air in the past. Water suspends easier in a higher electro-magnetic field, and apparently decay in rocks occurs faster when protected from the solar wind by a stronger magnetic field. Thus rocks possibly decayed faster during the pre-flood period when there was higher concentrations of water vapour.

The human skulls that are found that look different from today's have all got reasonable explanations that have nothing to do with evolution. Often they resemble the skull shape of modern humans that have been nutritionally deprived, or are merely an extinct race with distinct features, or a monkey skull, or someone that just looks a bit different. Races can become extinct just like animals through isolation or sudden changes to the environment without the skills to cope for it (the sudden onset of an ice-age), or merely through being absorbed into more numerous dominant populations.

Evolution lacks evidence as an explanation for the fossil record because the whole hypothesis is based on observing one or two slight improvements through mutation (mutation nearly always damages a species) and then assuming positive mutations are the best explanation for the pre-flood explosions of life-forms from 1 million DNA base pairs into 3 BILLION DNA base pairs. Scientists haven't even considered the more likely explanation that the reason for those observed explosions in higher life forms, could have been creation, which explains the evidence better than their weak hypothesis based on one or two rare positive mutations.