LGBT lawyers sue American pastor for "crimes agaist humanity" in Uganda

[Vhayes]

V, do you honestly believe Lively is guilty of crimes against humanity? All I can say is, the Ugandan government must be pretty pathetic if they craft legislation based on the opinions of a foreigner who has visited the country twice. If I were among the lawmakers there, I would take offense at the suggestion that Uganda is a body in need of an outsider's brain to formulate decisions and direct the legislative process.

From the same article I quoted above.

The three Americans who spoke at the conference — Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, whose mission is “mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality” — are now trying to distance themselves from the bill.

“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality.

“That’s horrible, absolutely horrible,” he said. “Some of the nicest people I have ever met are gay people.”

Mr. Lively and Mr. Brundidge have made similar remarks in interviews or statements issued by their organizations. But the Ugandan organizers of the conference admit helping draft the bill, and Mr. Lively has acknowledged meeting with Ugandan lawmakers to discuss it. He even wrote on his blog in March that someone had likened their campaign to “a nuclear bomb against the gay agenda in Uganda.” Later, when confronted with criticism, Mr. Lively said he was very disappointed that the legislation was so harsh.

Please read. It's all documented.

To hang someone for being homosexual would BE a crime against humanity. Wouldn't it?

[Warrior4God]

That's right. It doesn't.

So... why say I'm naive? Or imply that I'm too dense to "get" it? Or ask why people defend homosexuality (when no one has)

Well, honestly, not saying it as a putdown but a statement of opinion, but I really think that you are naive if you truly believe that the government of Uganda couldn't have still created their severe laws apart from any of Mr. Lively's expressed views on homosexuality. You're giving this guy way too much credit and power over an entire government of a nation. This guy never advocated for the strict punishment for gays that the government implemented, either. That was their call. I wouldn't say that you "defend homosexuality." I've seen you concur that it is sin. I agree with your view that homosexuals are no worse of a sinner than anybody else, as well. Perhaps you are mistaking me for somebody else or you're possibly just lumping me in with some others that you feel at odds with? I think your zeal in standing up for homosexuals comes across to some people the wrong way and they see it as you "defending homosexuality."

[teddyv]

Well, honestly, not saying it as a putdown but a statement of opinion, but I really think that you are naive if you truly believe that the government of Uganda couldn't have still created their severe laws apart from any of Mr. Lively's expressed views on homosexuality. You're giving this guy way too much credit and power over an entire government of a nation. This guy never advocated for the strict punishment for gays that the government implemented, either. That was their call. I wouldn't say that you "defend homosexuality." I've seen you concur that it is sin. I agree with your view that homosexuals are no worse of a sinner than anybody else, as well. Perhaps you are mistaking me for somebody else or you're possibly just lumping me in with some others that you feel at odds with? I think your zeal in standing up for homosexuals comes across to some people the wrong way and they see it as you "defending homosexuality."

I wonder if Mr Lively was really aware of the repercussions of his views in another cultural context such as this. If he failed to consider the potential ramifications of his opinions within such a context, then he has, at minimum, shown a severe lack of judgment. And he's not the one who is going to pay for that lack of judgment, but rather citizens of Uganda who find themselves on the wrong side of this law.

[Warrior4God]

I wonder if Mr Lively was really aware of the repercussions of his views in another cultural context such as this. If he failed to consider the potential ramifications of his opinions within such a context, then he has, at minimum, shown a severe lack of judgment. And he's not the one who is going to pay for that lack of judgment, but rather citizens of Uganda who find themselves on the wrong side of this law.

So, let me see if I can understand this. Some guy stating that homosexuality is sin and has no power and position in government to make any laws is some kind of monster, but the ones that actually have any power to make severe laws, and who actually created the laws, are somehow in the clear in your view? Could you please, if it's even possible, tell me how that makes any sense?

[Sojourner55]

I wonder if Mr Lively was really aware of the repercussions of his views in another cultural context such as this. If he failed to consider the potential ramifications of his opinions within such a context, then he has, at minimum, shown a severe lack of judgment. And he's not the one who is going to pay for that lack of judgment, but rather citizens of Uganda who find themselves on the wrong side of this law.

Well, we don't agree very often, Teddy, but you said almost exactly what I was about to say. (As scary, as that is). And I believe the article Vhayes cited actually reinforces Lively's limited culpability, since the undercover clergyman, Kaoma said that he thought the Americans had "underestimated the homophobia in Uganda." I agree that Lively showed poor judgment, and that he was unwittingly complicit in setting up the repercussions that have made it harder for Ugandan homosexuals. But it was the Ugandan government that chose to pursue the legislation, and it was Uganda's own minister of of ethics and integrity that remarked, “Homosexuals can forget about human rights.” Attempts to bring Lively before an international court, accused of crimes against humanity is simply over the top. Especially given the atrocities being committed throughout Africa with impunity, that are not even being addressed. Lively may have stirred the pot, but the Ugandan government both did the cooking and serving.

[teddyv]

So, let me see if I can understand this. Some guy stating that homosexuality is sin and has no power and position in government to make any laws is some kind of monster, but the ones that actually have any power to make severe laws, and who actually created the laws, are somehow in the clear in your view? Could you please, if it's even possible, tell me how that makes any sense?

See Sojourner55's post above, since he appears to understand the point I was making.

[Vhayes]

I agree with what both TeddyV and Sojourner have just posted. I don't think the men who went to Uganda to teach people about "The Gay Agenda" had any IDEA their thoughts and teachings would be taken to the extreme that they were. But they should have been aware that would be a possibility and gauged their teaching accordingly - and most especially their recommendations and advice.

As far as Lively being sued, my guess (and it IS a guess) would be this is an action gauged to bring a lot of attention to the plight these people find themselves in - the biggest bang for the buck, so to speak.

But here's the part that troubles me; because of the manner in which this has played out, it looks as though American Christians export hatred and condemnation. This is the "face" of Christ to the Ugandan people, gay, straight, Muslim, unbeliever, whomever. And that just ought not to be. Instead of condemning people, we should be reaching out to them as Christ did. If we are Christians, we are ambassadors, not judge and jury.

[keck553]

Well I hope they repent and abide in Jesus before they are executed because there are far greater consequences awaiting them in eternity than a trumped up charge of "exported Christian hate."

Jesus didn't come to earth to impose "social justice" He came to save sinners from their own self imposed death.

[Fenris]

But here's the part that troubles me; because of the manner in which this has played out, it looks as though American Christians export hatred and condemnation.

So let me get this straight: African Christians enact a harsh law and it's American Christians who look bad?

American Christians are among the most ethical, moral, kind, and well-behaved people on the planet. That's plain to anyone who looks. If someone's looking for an excuse to hate Christians or Americans they can always find one though.

That the LGBT are suing an American here instead of the Muslims who say and do worse things to gay people every day shows their agenda: They hate American Christians.

[Fenris]

I just got it.

V, you don't care about gays being killed. You just don't want American Christians (like yourself) to look bad.

Yikes.

[Dani H]

So let me get this straight: African Christians enact a harsh law and it's American Christians who look bad?

American Christians are among the most ethical, moral, kind, and well-behaved people on the planet. That's plain to anyone who looks. If someone's looking for an excuse to hate Christians or Americans they can always find one though.

That the LGBT are suing an American here instead of the Muslims who say and do worse things to gay people every day shows their agenda: They hate American Christians.

They won't sue the Muslims because they don't want to get killed. So they pick the targets that they know are commanded to not repay evil for evil or execute brutal vengeance, and it's all good and honkey-dorey.

Cause really, they're just RB-iStock-Chicken-small.jpg

[Warrior4God]

See Sojourner55's post above, since he appears to understand the point I was making.

Well, I did as you suggested. I also read the original article again to see if I had missed anything. I don't believe that I did. My opinion hasn't changed, either. Mr. Lively has no position in the government of Uganda. He has no power in the government of Uganda. Any views that he expressed have no power to make laws, or even attempted laws, in Uganda. Uganda is a nation that already had a strong cultural disliking of homosexuality, as do many African nations. Those in the Ugandan government had every intention of trying to pass laws against homosexuality, whether they had heard of Mr. Lively's views or not. Though this "SMUG" group knows that Mr. Lively didn't have any direct role in the government of Uganda's attempt at creating strict laws against homosexuality, they are still suing because they desire to intimidate him, and others that share his views, into silence. It's a political thing being carried out in a courtroom. I think that those people, including Christians, that oppose the efforts of the Ugandan government to create the harsh laws, are merely using Mr. Lively as a scapegoat, not because it's warranted, but, because it's quite convenient to do so.

[Warrior4God]

They won't sue the Muslims because they don't want to get killed. So they pick the targets that they know are commanded to not repay evil for evil or execute brutal vengeance, and it's all good and honkey-dorey.

Cause really, they're just RB-iStock-Chicken-small.jpg

I totally agree.

[Fenris]

It's not about gay rights at all. It's just an easy excuse to beat up Christians.

There's a group called "Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism". They express solidarity with the Palestinians and demand that we cut all aid to Israel, demand that the Israelis stop being racist, etc etc. What's weird is that the Palestinians kill people for being gay, as does every other country in the region- aside from Israel.

If they really cared about injustice against gay people, they would condemn the countries where gays face discrimination and death. But they don't care about gay people, they just need an excuse to beat up on Israel.

If the LGBT lawyers in the OP really cared about crimes against humanity where gays are concerned, they would sue the Saudis, the Iranians, the Palestinians etc in court. But they obviously don't care about crimes against gay people.

[Bandit]

Christians should be preaching Christ and Him crucified and resurrected - not anti-homosexual laws.
...

But how can one "preach Christ" without also preaching about morality. People can take the line from the hymn, "Just as I am", a little too literally.