ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi Everyone,

THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL ADVANCES THE FOLLOWING:


PREMISE 1. DURING THE INTERMEDIATE STATE the souls of the
unrighteous deceased exist in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Sheol/Hades).

PREMISE 2. AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT the souls of unregenerate
human beings will be sustained in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Gehenna/lake of fire) for all eternity.



I'D LIKE TO CHALLENGE THOSE WHO BELIEVE SUCH TO OFFER SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL BY ANSWERING THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:


What OT evidence might have convinced Christ's contemporaries
(i.e. the Pharisees) of the Traditional view of hell? (From Gen. - Mal.)

OT evidence that supports Premise 1.
OT evidence that supports Premise 2.

We can get to the New Testament , once we exhaust the Old Testament (scriptural evidence only please) that would have convinced the Pharisees of Jesus day who supported both premises.

[Vanderhoven7]

The traditional doctrine of “hell” (Gehenna/Lake of Fire) is the view endorsed by most evangelical churches. According to this view, the lake of fire is a literal place where the immortal souls of unregenerate human beings experience horrendous levels of pain and anguish. And the extreme distress and suffering in hell is eternal in the sense that it will never end.

This view of hell, which clearly defines the nature of final punishment as eternal torment, is unmistakably rooted in Judeo-Christian tradition. Although there was no single Jewish doctrine of hell, history establishes that the idea of everlasting conscious punishment of the wicked was affirmed in some rabbinical circles as early as the intertestamental period. This is clearly documented in Judith, one of the books of the Apocrypha (hidden books) written about 150 BC.

“Woe to the nations that rise up against my race;
The Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them
in the day of judgment,
To put fire and worms in their flesh;
And they shall weep and feel their pain forever.”
Jth. 16:17

Also in the Pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”), consisting of 77 books thought to have been written between 200 BC. and 100 AD., the theme of ongoing conscious torment is depicted as at least one of the retributive scenarios for the wicked. In the second book of Enoch for example, a rather terrifying place is described, where;

murky fire constantly flameth aloft, and a fiery river
(comes) forth, and the whole place is everywhere fire,
and everywhere frost and ice, thirst and shivering,
while the bonds are very cruel, and the angels fearful
and merciless, bearing angry weapons, merciless
torture. 2 En. 40:12

Early post apostolic history also witnesses to the continuity of the doctrine of eternal torment within both Jewish and Christian traditions. Jewish literature during this period often graphically detailed the retributive misery of the damned. For example, licentious men are spoken of as hanging by their genitals, woman who suckled their young in public, as hanging by their breasts, and those who talked during synagogue prayers, as having their mouths filled with hot coals. Christian literature of the period, is strikingly similar in nature. The New Testament Apocrypha for example, including books such as, “The Apocalypse of Peter”, “The Acts of Thomas” and “The Apocalypse of Paul”, speak of blasphemers hanging by their tongues, women who had had abortions, as sitting neck deep in excrement, and those who turned their backs on God as being slowly baked in fire.

Controversy today still surrounds the position held by second century church Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and Tertian . But whether or not differences of opinion existed regarding the fate of the wicked no internal dispute on the subject is evident from the literature of the day . What is clear however, is that when commenting on final punishment, the Apostolic Fathers tended to limit themselves to the language and images found in scripture, rather than borrow from other non canonical Jewish and Christian sources.

Although the second, third and fourth centuries of the common era were characterized by an absence of uniformity regarding the ultimate fate of the wicked, it is probable that eternal conscious punishment had become the predominant view within Christendom before the turn of the third century. And from that point on, the doctrine of eternal torment continued in uninterrupted prominence right up through the Middle Ages to the present date.

In recent years however, despite overwhelming consensus among evangelicals since the Reformation, a number of respected theologians within the evangelical camp have begun to challenge the traditional view. Scholars of the stature of Clark H. Pinnock and John R. W. Stott have actually gone on record as saying that such doctrines as “immortality of the soul” and “eternal conscious punishment” simply are not biblical.

Since the critical factor for evangelicals has always been “what the Bible says”, and not religious tradition, majority opinion, or personal sentiment, it should be our goal to critically evaluate the scriptural case for the traditionalist position to determine whether or not the Bible clearly teaches that the nature of final punishment is ETERNAL TORMENT.

[MoreMercy]

Eternal separation from God is: eternal torment/hell.

Restoration back to eternal fellowship with Him our Creator(and reason for being created) is: eternal Life and Life more abundantly/paradise.


Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Vanderhoven7]

Eternal separation from God is: eternal torment/hell.

Hi MM

Eternal separation is more descriptive of the metaphorical view of hell; no literal fire perhaps, just psychological distress for eternity. It doesn't really soften the blow however.

I believe the Bible teaches destruction, rather than eternal uncomfortable existence as the wage or penalty of sin. God can and will destroy the soul in hell.

I am hoping someone will take up the challenge to find Old Testament passages that might have influenced the Pharisees to adopt the traditional view of hell that they believed and taught in Jesus' day.

Vander

[Watchman]

I believe the Bible teaches destruction, rather than eternal uncomfortable existence as the wage or penalty of sin. God can and will destroy the soul in hell.

I agree with this! I've recently begun an ebook about this on my kindle...but my wife has 'borrowed' the kindle...and I can't recall the title. The author is Edward Fudge.

blessings,

Watchman

[Vanderhoven7]

QUESTION BEING ADDRESSED:

Do we find eternal torment as the punishment for sin in the Old Testament?


a. Sheol (Old Testament)

- There doesn't seem to be any hard evidence for conscious
torment in any of the 65 Sheol passages.


b. Old Testament Eschatology

The predominant punishment imagery of the Old Testament
is unquestionably that of destruction. Endless torment of
immortal souls is simply not found in the Hebrew scriptures.

[Vanderhoven7]

I agree with this! I've recently begun an ebook about this on my kindle...but my wife has 'borrowed' the kindle...and I can't recall the title. The author is Edward Fudge.

Hi Watchman,

Yes, the title of his main work is: "The Fire That Consumes".

He also was one of the co-authors of "Four Views on Hell" and "Two Views of Hell" which are written in debate format.

Thanks,

Vander

[Watchman]

Right. I knew I'd recognize the title...just couldn't pull it out of my head. I really need to swipe my kindle back and finish reading it.

Thanks,

Watchman

[MoreMercy]

Hi MM

Eternal separation is more descriptive of the metaphorical view of hell; no literal fire perhaps, just psychological distress for eternity. It doesn't really soften the blow however.

I believe the Bible teaches destruction, rather than eternal uncomfortable existence as the wage or penalty of sin. God can and will destroy the soul in hell.

I am hoping someone will take up the challenge to find Old Testament passages that might have influenced the Pharisees to adopt the traditional view of hell that they believed and taught in Jesus' day.

Vander

Hi, Vanderhoven7.
For the purpose of concrete concepts as compared to or rather that abstract concepts to communicate concepts of thinking: I communicate that we no longer exist in hell because our soul is not a living being if we have no spirit/breath and body/dust composing us.
That is eternal torment as seen now from where we are in a dust/body and a spirit that is still only liable to die but not dead-eternal yet.
Our soul not-dead-yet-(still has a body and spirit) can imaging eternal torment, our dead soul(body and spirit-less) cannot imagine anything any longer, get it ?
UNLESS Christ Jesus's work done raises or re-births us from being liable to die/no-life-eternally into an eternal life/no-death-eternally.

I am going by what composes a living-soul from the first time the concept of soul is communicated in our bibles and everywhere there after confirms the original use of that words introduction to us in our bibles both in the archaic Greek and in the archaic Hebrew.

And I am going by what the original Archaic Hebrew words were used before translated into other languages for my use in my communication on/of eternity, and also on/of soul, and also on/of spirit/breath, and also on/of dust, and also life and also death and also functional and also dysfunctional.
The archaic Greek says the exact same things as the archaic Hebrew does on these topics of eternity, soul, spirit, dust, life and death but it communicates these topics or concepts of thinking as abstract rather than concrete as the archaic Hebrew does.


Destruction of our soul's body/dust and the total withdraw of our spirit of God's breath/life-working-purpose-function from our soul leaves us nothing but a body-less soul and a dead empty/none-spirit to facilitate that soul...it will be dead-eternally.

Dead physically when our body separates from the spirit given it by God's spirit/breath/life-working-purpose-function.

Dead eternally if Christ does not recognize us before His Father on that Great Day, the last day, our judgment day after ALL things in heaven and on earth are restored to its original/function/purpose.

Now/currently if we can still read, speak, walk, eat, drink, move, love hate n all the other things living souls can do... then we are still only liable to die or be dead/empty/none-spirit and body-less.
Meaning, no facilities for our soul to affect or effect our environment where ever that may be for our eternally, I hope I know where my environment will be, but that is up to Christ Jesus.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Vanderhoven7]

The concept of an immortal soul is of pagan origin. This mortal must put on immortality at the resurrection. Immortality is something to be sought for and put on. Interestingly enough there is not a single scripture in the Holy Bible which indicates otherwise. The word of God clearly teaches that soul that sinneth, it shall die. The wicked shall perish according to scripture.

Perhaps someone will take up the challenge to find Old Testament passages that might have influenced the Pharisees to adopt the traditional view of hell. Where did the Pharisees get the idea of immortality of the soul, cruel angels carrying off sinners to be tormented on the left side of hell (Sheol) to be mercilessly tormented while kind angel carried the righteous to the right side of hell to enjoy meals with Abraham?

I don't believe we can find any of this in any of the 39 canonical books of the Old Testament.

Vander

[MoreMercy]

Vanderhoven7
These concepts of: "eternity, soul, spirit, dust/humus, flesh/animal/human, life and death" were introduced into our bibles, way, very-way-longer (by several millennia) before Pharisee became a word that even had a position in the hierarchical echelons of Hebrew culture.

I suggest you do a some research for yourself before you try to educate anyone on history, human cultures, or the anthropology of languages etymology.

Or you could just keep taking men's word for it and never look into it any deeper for yourself.

Those who "diligently" seek Him, find Him and lose themselves, they find light that dispels darkness, they start functioning and recognize dysfunction, they start living life more abundantly.
And begin to breath, eat and drink from saving faith that affords the opportunity for restoration back into life-eternal with our Creator.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Vanderhoven7]

Thank you Samuel.

If someone teaches something against the Apostles Creed, I would understand moderators stepping in. That would represent legitimate protection for believers. Our understanding of final punishment however has no bearing on the doctrine of Christ, who He is and what He has accomplished for us and for our salvation. Yet, if the Mods feel that this thread is a threat to biblical truth, it is their prerogative to lock it up.

I do appreciate your concern.

Vander

[amazzin]

Samuel leave the moderation to the moderators and stay on topic. Your post was deleted.

[PJW]

I am not an Old Testament student, but I would think that Jesus' parable of Lazarus the beggar, in Luke 16:19-31, would only incorporate truth and no false teachings.

[Vanderhoven7]

I am not an Old Testament student, but I would think that Jesus' parable of Lazarus the beggar, in Luke 16:19-31, would only incorporate truth and no false teachings.

Hi PJW

Was Elijah teaching false doctrine when he encouraged the priests of Baal to keep shouting since that their god might be in the loo?

Luke 16:19-31 is a totally unique account with absolutely no scriptural precedent. Jesus was clearly telling the Pharisees' story back to them.

The question remains however: Where did they get this story if it is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew scriptures?