ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[divaD]

Judgment is up to God, not me. I just try to warn people that if they try to spread/preach the doctrine of "soul is not immortal", .

The way you put that then, this implies you must have Scriptural proof that man is created with an immortal soul. So where are these Scriptures? The idea is, prove something you disagree with, with Scriptures, not with personal opinions. For example, here's one reason to conclude the soul must be mortal.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Everybody physically dies, so this can't be meaning to physically die because you are sinning. It has to mean what happens to that soul in the LOF, the 2nd death.

[divaD]

If you say that "soul is not immortal", the hidden message is that "you can choose to vanish" instead of believing Jesus Christ. So if people believe so, and make a decision to vanish instead of believing Jesus Christ, you are causing their dead in the case that soul exist forever, and his soul isn't saved due to your saying that "soul is not immortal".

If someone doesn't choose to believe in Jesus, I highly doubt that it's because they think they have nothing to fear in the future. If they didn't believe in Jesus, what makes you think they would even believe in a LOF to begin with, the fact they don't believe in Jesus, regardless what happens in the LOF according to whomever?

[Watchman]

How can the soul be immortal, when the soul is comprised of the mixture of body and spirit?

[divaD]

How can the soul be immortal, when the soul is comprised of the mixture of body and spirit?

I'm not certain what you're getting at myself, but I would think it's the soul in a person that causes the body to do whatever the body does. This would be why the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But it would be impossible, not to mention, nonsensical, if an immortal can die. If something is an obvious contradiction, it always amazes me that that person doesn't seek to clear up the contradiction. Not all contradiction would appear obvious. But an immortal soul that can die, there's an obvious contradiction there. Either souls aren't immortal, or souls can't die, even tho that passage in Ezekiel 18 says they can, as does Matt 10:28 as well.

[Watchman]

I'm not certain what you're getting at myself, but I would think it's the soul in a person that causes the body to do whatever the body does. This would be why the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But it would be impossible, not to mention, nonsensical, if an immortal can die. If something is an obvious contradiction, it always amazes me that that person doesn't seek to clear up the contradiction. Not all contradiction would appear obvious. But an immortal soul that can die, there's an obvious contradiction there. Either souls aren't immortal, or souls can die, since that passage in Ezekiel 18 says they can, as does Matt 10:28 as well.

Hi DivaD,

Since we are comprised of spirit + body = soul, then it is easy to see that the body - spirit = death, hence the death of the being, or soul. However, the spirit comes from God.

[percho]

Amen. Excellent scripture John. Innate immortality is not a biblical teaching. It is a pagan derivative. Not one verse in the Bible supports it, but many contradict it. This mortal must put on immortality; it is something we seek for... and are promised; it will be ours at the resurrection.

Amen to the previous amen.

[John146]

So how do you think destroy should be understood in that passage? Do you think it means to torment forever?

Yes. I believe that is what the word "destroy" means in that verse but not the word "kill". Those two words are translated from two different Greek words. If "destroy" was meant to mean exactly the same thing as "kill" in that verse then why did Jesus use two different words? I believe He used two different words for a reason there so that people would know there's a difference between killing the body and destroying the body in hell. When He spoke of God destroying body and soul in hell why wouldn't He have again used the word He used to describe someone killing the body but not the soul if He intended to say that God destroying the body in hell was no different than someone killing the body? That two different words were used there tells me that the destroying of the body and soul in hell should not be understood in the exact same sense as the killing of the body.

If so, using your own words, this would have to be your conclusion..."It's not nearly as nonsensical as concluding that it's saying the body and soul will be ETERNALLY TORMENTED. That would mean the verse is saying to not fear those who can ETERNALLY TORMENT the body but cannot ETERNALLY TORMENT the soul. The problem with that is when someone kills someone's body they are not ETERNALLY TORMENTING the person's body."

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying killing the body is eternally tormenting the body. Killing the body is to cause the body to be dead and unconscious (but not annihilated). I'm saying God destroying the body and soul in hell has to do with Him having people cast into hell (the lake of fire) where they will experience torment forever. It should be clear that it's a place where eternal torment will occur based on Rev 20:10 since that verse indicates that the devil will be tormented forever and I believe that is what is taught regarding the wicked in Rev 14:9-11 as well.

In case that's not your view, feel free to change ETERNAL TORMENT to what your view is. IMO, I gave the correct sense for destroy in that verse..it means to kill, So
whatever happens to a body once it's been killed, usually meaning that body is entirely unaware of it's surroundings at that point, the same concept has to apply to the soul once it is killed. What happens to the body eventually? It turns to dust. What usually happens to things in a fire eventually? They turn to ashes. Whether a soul can be turned into ashes, I guess only God knows. But at least it's staying consistent with what happens to a body after awhile. And besides, fire has been known to turn things into ashes eventually, as if those things had never existed, since the ashes in no way resembles what it was before it became ashes.

That's still not a case of the body being annihilated so do you think people's bodies will turn to ashes and then the ashes will be around forever? If so, wouldn't that mean their souls would somehow be around forever as well but in an unconscious state (why would that be?).

The point I'm making regarding your particular view is that Jesus could not have been speaking of annihilation if the words "kill" and "destroy" mean the same thing in that verse since when someone kills the body they don't annihilate the body. Would you agree that killing the body is not a case of annihilating the body? I would think that you would agree with that, so you are left with a view that says people's bodies will be turned to ashes but not annihilated. Why would God do that? If He intends to render their bodies useless forever why wouldn't He just annihilate their bodies instead of turning them into ashes? Why make a mess of things with people's ashes everywhere instead of just annihilating them if His intention was to make them unconscious forever?

[John146]

Paul wrote.


We, absent from the body? I guess we can say that the "we," are we souls. The soul would rather be absent from the body. What body? For we (souls) know that if our earthly house of tabernacle (the body to be absent from) were dissolved,
Such as shall we say of, the dead in Christ of 1 Thess 4:16, by now I would think the earthly house of tabernacle, of their souls would be dissolved, that is dust and maybe a few bones. Well that does leave the soul, without a body, therefore naked. John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions:(rooms, dwelling places, abodes) if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Now do you die and go get or receive or put it on? NO. You always hear V2 at funerals and I have never understood why for it is directly proportional to John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. You don't die and go get it, He brings it with him.
Back to 2 Cor. 5 V1-3 we (souls) have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (mansion) which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found (found when?) naked.
Verse 4 For we (souls) that are in [this] tabernacle (the earthly body the soul would rather be absent from) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Just when does that take place according to the same Paul.

1 Cor. 15:52,53,54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When did Paul believe he would ever be with the Lord?

At the second coming of Christ, but the context there clearly has to do with being BODILY resurrected and changed and to then be with the Lord forever BODILY. In 1 Cor 15 Paul clearly refers to the BODY being made incorruptible and immortal, not our spirits or souls.

[divaD]

Yes. I believe that is what the word "destroy" means in that verse but not the word "kill". Those two words are translated from two different Greek words. If "destroy" was meant to mean exactly the same thing as "kill" in that verse then why did Jesus use two different words? I believe He used two different words for a reason there so that people would know there's a difference between killing the body and destroying the body in hell. When He spoke of God destroying body and soul in hell why wouldn't He have again used the word He used to describe someone killing the body but not the soul if He intended to say that God destroying the body in hell was no different than someone killing the body? That two different words were used there tells me that the destroying of the body and soul in hell should not be understood in the exact same sense as the killing of the body.

I don't know if you saw an earlier post of mine, but I argued this from the perspective of Matt 2:13.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This part...for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. That's the same Greek word used for destroy in Matt 10:28. So how do think destroy should be understood here? The point being, destroy can most certainly be understood in the sense of killing someone, since I'm pretty certain that's what Herod had in mind, had this young child been found. But notice tho, the Greek word for kill in Matt 10:28 was not used here, but the Greek word for destroy was used instead, which shows that destroy can be used in the sense of to kill. And that fits Matt 10:28 like a glove IMO.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying killing the body is eternally tormenting the body. Killing the body is to cause the body to be dead and unconscious (but not annihilated). I'm saying God destroying the body and soul in hell has to do with Him having people cast into hell (the lake of fire) where they will experience torment forever.

I know that's not what you're saying, as neither was what you said I was saying, that was not what I was saying as well. That's confusing I know. So let's get back to the passage then.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why in the world would Jesus tell anyone not to fear someone that cannot kill the soul, if the killing of the soul is impossible, even by God? Why bring that up? And then after saying that, totally contradict Himself by saying, rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? First we're told it's impossible for man to kill the soul. Then according to your understanding, we are then told that it's even impossible for God to do that, because destroy in that context means to torment forever, not kill. The ironic thing, nowhere in that context is tormented eternally ever alluded to. But the context does have a lot to say about killing tho.

That's still not a case of the body being annihilated so do you think people's bodies will turn to ashes and then the ashes will be around forever?

Heck if I know. But the fact that a supernatural God has something to do with it, I'm certain He would know how to dispose of any remaining ashes, assuming the body turns to ashes in the LOF. But even if the ashes never went away, in no way would those ashes resemble what the person was before becoming ashes. So assuming they might turn into ashes, why do that, if in their ashes, they're still fully aware of their surroundings?

The point I'm making regarding your particular view is that Jesus could not have been speaking of annihilation if the words "kill" and "destroy" mean the same thing in that verse since when someone kills the body they don't annihilate the body.

But that not the point. One doesn't have to fully annihilate a body, in order for that body to be dead. If kill and destroy mean the same thing in that context, and if to kill the body means that the body is no linger aware of it's surroundings, then why would that concept be different, if God killed one's soul in hell? Why would the soul still be aware of it's surroundings after being killed by God in hell?

[John146]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

If we look at this scripture, what does it say?

We are saved, or given eternal life through faith. And that not of yourselves, if our soul is immortal, then we do not need the gift of eternal life, we already have it, we are just haggling over where we will spend it.

This illustrates one of the problems with your view. You are talking about eternal life as if it was merely eternal existence. But it is much more than just that. It is an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God. The opposite of that is not annihilation, it is an eternity of misery apart from the presence of God.

[Vanderhoven7]

Actually, it predates the pagans...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Devil deceived the first woman...

True. I was referring to it's intro into Judiasm.

[John146]

I don't know if you saw an earlier post of mine, but I argued this from the perspective of Matt 2:13.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This part...for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. That's the same Greek word used for destroy in Matt 10:28. So how do think destroy should be understood here? The point being, destroy can most certainly be understood in the sense of killing someone, since I'm pretty certain that's what Herod had in mind, had this young child been found. But notice tho, the Greek word for kill in Matt 10:28 was not used here, but the Greek word for destroy was used instead, which shows that destroy can be used in the sense of to kill. And that fits Matt 10:28 like a glove IMO.

First of all, I did not say that the Greek word translated as "destroy" there could not be used in reference to killing someone. But that word has other meanings as well, so it does not have to mean that. And, again, if that's what it means in that verse then why wasn't the same word translated as kill (apokteinō) used when it talked about the fact that God can destroy (apollymi) the body and soul in hell?

I know that's not what you're saying, as neither was what you said I was saying, that was not what I was saying as well. That's confusing I know.

Looks like we both are having problems understanding what each other is saying, which is nothing new.

So let's get back to the passage then.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why in the world would Jesus tell anyone not to fear someone that cannot kill the soul, if the killing of the soul is impossible, even by God? Why bring that up?

To show that only God can do anything to someone's soul. People can't do anything to our souls, they can only do something to our bodies. The point isn't to say that people can't kill our souls, but God can. The point is that the only part of us that people can do any harm to is our bodies and they can't touch our souls. God, on the other hand, can do whatever He pleases with not only one's body but also their soul.

And then after saying that, totally contradict Himself by saying, rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell?

There's no contradiction. I'm sure God could completely destroy people's bodies and souls if He wanted to, but I just don't think that's what Jesus was saying there. Why would He contradict what is taught elsewhere in scripture? Sorry, friend, but scripture indicates that being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment (Rev 14:9-11, Rev 20:10, Matt 25:41,46) so you need to interpret Matt 10:28 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

First we're told it's impossible for man to kill the soul. Then according to your understanding, we are then told that it's even impossible for God to do that,

That is not what I was saying! Please read my posts more carefully. I never once said that it's impossible for God to kill the soul, so don't put words in my mouth, so to speak. All I'm saying is that God destroying the body and soul in hell is not equivalent to him killing the body and soul in hell in the same sense of someone killing a person's body.

[divaD]

The opposite of that is not annihilation, it is an eternity of misery apart from the presence of God.

But doesn't that contradict some folks conclusions when it comes to the following passage?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If this passage is meaning eternal torment in the LOF as many suppose, isn't it then required, that if the torment lasts forever, then so should this part...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels , and in the presence of the Lamb ?

[divaD]

But that word has other meanings as well, so it does not have to mean that.

I fully agree. As a matter of fact, in another post I showed it could be understood as being tormented in some contexts, relating to spirit creatures, such as demons.

And, again, if that's what it means in that verse then why wasn't the same word translated as kill (apokteinō) used when it talked about the fact that God can destroy (apollymi) the body and soul in hell?

Why would it need to be? I would think someone should get the clue as to what it means via the fact Jesus said not to fear someone who cannot kill the soul. Obviously then, at least to me, the killing of the soul must be a possibilty, but just not by way of man tho. Otherwise it's unreasnable for Jesus to even state such a thing to begin with.

Looks like we both are having problems understanding what each other is saying, which is nothing new.

I understand you most of the time, but I just don't always agree. You are an excellent communicator and easy to follow for the most part.

The point isn't to say that people can't kill our souls, but God can.

But that's a contradiction IMO, if God doesn't actually ever kill anyone's soul. That shows that not even He can do it.

Why would He contradict what is taught elsewhere in scripture?

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So in your opinion, if God killed souls in hell, this would be a contradiction to the above passages?

That is not what I was saying! Please read my posts more carefully. I never once said that it's impossible for God to kill the soul, so don't put words in my mouth, so to speak. All I'm saying is that God destroying the body and soul in hell is not equivalent to him killing the body and soul in hell in the same sense of someone killing a person's body.

Your conclusions most certainly say it. So I don't know how you are concluding I'm putting words in your mouth? Your conclusions say that God cannot kill souls in hell because He eternally torments them instead. I know you're not saying that God is unable to kill souls if He wanted to. But that's not the point I was making. I would think I know you well enough by now, that in your mind, that nothing would be impossible to God, if God wanted to do whatever He wanted to do. You're just misunderstanding me is all.

[percho]

At the second coming of Christ, but the context there clearly has to do with being BODILY resurrected and changed and to then be with the Lord forever BODILY. In 1 Cor 15 Paul clearly refers to the BODY being made incorruptible and immortal, not our spirits or souls.

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come? The dead what? The dead "persons with names" who had been living souls and with what manner of body will Larry, Curly and Mo come up with from the dead?

Acts 2:31,32 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;

The resurrection concerns the totality of the person. Spirit is the essence of life from God that keeps a person alive, that is a living soul. When Jesus commended his spirit unto the hands of the Father, Jesus was no longer a living soul, He was dead. The spirit of life was gone to God the Father who gave it. At that moment his body still hanging on the cross the once living soul Jesus was in the heart of the earth (Hades) the lowest parts of the earth, for three days and three nights and his body was at that moment still hanging on the cross subject to corruption yet being given the sure mercies of David woiuld not see corruption it was buried in an above ground tomb just before the fifteenth day of the month sabbath begin.

After three days and three nights from his death God the Father by the Holy Spirit raised the soul Jesus his Son from Hades and his flesh did not see corruption. Jesus, the only begotten Son of God the Father the seed of Abraham and also David had been dead. This is said of the resurrected Jesus. Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. And this; Acts 13:30,33 But God raised him from the dead: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee. It is the Father that raises the dead and quickens (gives life). John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And this is the kind of life he gave him at that time: John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

His soul was not left in Hades. It was resurrected.
Neither did his flesh see corruption and was resurrected incorruptible, no more to return to corruption. Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

David in contrast is both dead and buried. His soul is in Hades and his flesh saw corruption.

Jesus was the heir of this promise and when he was resurrected, the firstborn from the dead, he inherited this promise. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Jesus also for obedience of faith unto death even the death of the cross received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33 and by the Holy Spirit being shed on through the faith of Jesus Christ we then become joint heirs With Christ of the hope of eternal life, to be inherited when we are born again from the dead by resurrection/instant change at his appearing. Titus 3:6,7 1 John 3:2 Rom 8:29.

Adam wasn't an immortal soul, We are not immortal souls, Jesus wasn't born of the virgin Mary an immortal soul he was born in the figure of the first man Adam.
The only begotten Son of God was flesh and blood, sinless, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, without spot or blemish, through agony and resisting unto blood striving against sin in the garden was obedient unto death. The Father who had begotten him laid all to sin of the world on him and he died for us. Through the faith of Jesus obedient dying, his shed blood, Jesus was made the mercy seat a propitiation and God the Father by his grace, raised him who had been made sin for us from the dead.