ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[John 8:32]

Are you saying you do not believe in a greater damnation for those most knowledgeable and most offensive of the damned?

What is greater damnation? Death or death?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is one final destination for all incorrigibly wicked, death. Being burned to death in the lake of fire. Death for all eternity. It just doesn't get any worse than that.

[John146]

Why would it need to be?

For the sake of consistency and clarity.

I would think someone should get the clue as to what it means via the fact Jesus said not to fear someone who cannot kill the soul. Obviously then, at least to me, the killing of the soul must be a possibilty, but just not by way of man tho. Otherwise it's unreasnable for Jesus to even state such a thing to begin with.

I'm not even arguing that it's not possible to kill the soul, I'm arguing that destroying the soul is different than killing the soul.

But that's a contradiction IMO, if God doesn't actually ever kill anyone's soul. That shows that not even He can do it.

I don't think it makes sense to try to say that if God doesn't do something that means He can't do it. That's the kind of reasoning you appear to be using here but we both know God can do anything, but that doesn't mean He's obligated to do everything He has the ability to do. He has the ability to strike both of us dead right now but that doesn't mean He's going to do it.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So in your opinion, if God killed souls in hell, this would be a contradiction to the above passages?

Let's get on the same page here. What we're contrasting is annihilation with eternal torment. So, if you're asking me if God annihilating souls in hell would contradict those passages then my answer is yes. The word "die" or "death" is not synonymous with annihilation, as I have pointed out many times now. I see no reason why those would not be saying the same thing as other passages say which is that the wicked will suffer the second death and be separated "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" forever.

Your conclusions most certainly say it. So I don't know how you are concluding I'm putting words in your mouth?

Why are you trying to tell me what I'm saying? Do you think I don't know what I'm saying? Why can't you take my word for it if I tell you that I'm not saying that it's impossible for God to kill someone's soul? I never said that and my conclusions don't imply that, either.

Your conclusions say that God cannot kill souls in hell because He eternally torments them instead.

How does Him doing one thing mean He can't do another? There's no logic in that whatsoever. What He does depends on what He desires and chooses to do and doesn't say anything about Him being incapable of doing something else if He had chosen to do so.

I know you're not saying that God is unable to kill souls if He wanted to. But that's not the point I was making. I would think I know you well enough by now, that in your mind, that nothing would be impossible to God, if God wanted to do whatever He wanted to do. You're just misunderstanding me is all.

Then what are you saying? First, you said "Your conclusions say that God cannot kill souls in hell" and then you said "I know you're not saying that God is unable to kill souls if He wanted to". That seems to be a contradiction so please clarify what point you're trying to make here.

[John146]

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come? The dead what? The dead "persons with names" who had been living souls and with what manner of body will Larry, Curly and Mo come up with from the dead?

Acts 2:31,32 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;

The resurrection concerns the totality of the person.

I completely disagree. I think you need to read 1 Cor 15:35 more carefully.

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?

Notice it says "with what manner of body do they come"? It should be obvious that it's only talking about dead bodies being resurrected here and it says nothing about the soul. If you continue reading after verse 35 it should be clear that Paul was only referring to the resurrection of the body there, not to the resurrection of the soul.

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of the natural, corruptible, mortal body and it being changed to a spiritual, incorruptible and immortal body. There is no mention of the soul at all within 1 Cor 15. It is all about the resurrection of dead bodies and that's it. It says absolutely nothing about the resurrection of "the totality of the person" as you are trying to claim.

[John 8:32]

I completely disagree. I think you need to read 1 Cor 15:35 more carefully.

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?

Notice it says "with what manner of body do they come"? It should be obvious that it's only talking about dead bodies being resurrected here and it says nothing about the soul. If you continue reading after verse 35 it should be clear that Paul was only referring to the resurrection of the body there, not to the resurrection of the soul.

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of the natural, corruptible, mortal body and it being changed to a spiritual, incorruptible and immortal body. There is no mention of the soul at all within 1 Cor 15. It is all about the resurrection of dead bodies and that's it. It says absolutely nothing about the resurrection of "the totality of the person" as you are trying to claim.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

We may be looking through a glass darkly...

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Not sure we know exactly what God will resurrect.

[John146]

I find it amusing that most who want to take this parable as literal teaching concerning hell, surely don't take verses 29-31 literally...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

After all, this is telling you that to gain salvation you must go to the LAW. Same folks who take this as literal teaching tell you the law is done away, but this parable says the diametric opposite.

I can't believe you have the nerve to imply that Jesus taught falsehood in that passage. There is nothing false taught in that passage. It's as if you think He was just making things up that contradicted scripture for no apparent reason. That passage is NOT saying "that to gain salvation you must go to the LAW.". Why in the world would Jesus tell a story that would contradict the truth? He wouldn't have.

It is true that if someone was not willing to repent at the teachings of Moses and the prophets then they could not be persuaded to repent by the teachings of someone who rose from the dead, either. What basis is there for thinking that is not true? That passage has nothing to do with saying that "to gain salvation you must go to the LAW", it has to do with the fact that Moses and the prophets taught and proclaimed the truth that should lead to repentance, so if someone isn't going to repent at their teaching of the truth then what would make anyone think they would repent at the teaching of the truth from someone who rose from the dead?

[John 8:32]

I can't believe you have the nerve to imply that Jesus taught falsehood in that passage. There is nothing false taught in that passage. It's as if you think He was just making things up that contradicted scripture for no apparent reason. That passage is NOT saying "that to gain salvation you must go to the LAW.". Why in the world would Jesus tell a story that would contradict the truth? He wouldn't have.

It is true that if someone was not willing to repent at the teachings of Moses and the prophets then they could not be persuaded to repent by the teachings of someone who rose from the dead, either. What basis is there for thinking that is not true? That passage has nothing to do with saying that "to gain salvation you must go to the LAW", it has to do with the fact that Moses and the prophets taught and proclaimed the truth that should lead to repentance, so if someone isn't going to repent at their teaching of the truth then what would make anyone think they would repent at the teaching of the truth from someone who rose from the dead?

How you doing keeping the 7th day Sabbath as per the law of Moses?

[John146]

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

We may be looking through a glass darkly...

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Not sure we know exactly what God will resurrect.

We don't have to wonder. Paul makes it clear that he is talking about the body in 1 Cor 15.

[John146]

How you doing keeping the 7th day Sabbath as per the law of Moses?

I'm not under the law of Moses. Where is your discernment? What Jesus said in Luke 16:29-31 had nothing to do with following the law of Moses, as I already pointed out. It has to do with the fact that if someone would not repent at the teaching of Moses and the prophets then they would not repent at the teaching of someone who was resurrected from the dead, either. What do you think Jesus was teaching in that passage?

[Robert Callow]

Originally Posted by Robert Callow Are you saying you do not believe in a greater damnation for those most knowledgeable and most offensive of the damned?

What is greater damnation? Death or death?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is one final destination for all incorrigibly wicked, death. Being burned to death in the lake of fire. Death for all eternity. It just doesn't get any worse than that.

I guess that's a “no”
As for me, I see Scripture speaking very clearly of a greater damnation coming on those who know God and wilfully offend Him.
Luke 12:35-48, Matthew 11:20-24, 23:13-14(KJV), 2 Peter 2:20-21, along with other references, serve well to explain this.

[percho]

What is greater damnation? Death or death?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is one final destination for all incorrigibly wicked, death. Being burned to death in the lake of fire. Death for all eternity. It just doesn't get any worse than that.

To be or not to be, that is the question!

I agree with you brother.

[percho]

I completely disagree. I think you need to read 1 Cor 15:35 more carefully.

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?

Notice it says "with what manner of body do they come"? It should be obvious that it's only talking about dead bodies being resurrected here and it says nothing about the soul. If you continue reading after verse 35 it should be clear that Paul was only referring to the resurrection of the body there, not to the resurrection of the soul.

1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The resurrection of the dead is the resurrection of the natural, corruptible, mortal body and it being changed to a spiritual, incorruptible and immortal body. There is no mention of the soul at all within 1 Cor 15. It is all about the resurrection of dead bodies and that's it. It says absolutely nothing about the resurrection of "the totality of the person" as you are trying to claim.

So what Paul meant to write was:

Some man will say, How are the dead bodies raised? And with manner of body are the dead bodies raised?

And back in verse's 3,4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that the body of Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that his body was buried, and that his body rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that his body
6 After that his body
7 After that his body
8 And last of all his body

Did the grown up, sinless man child Jesus die for sin?


Is the purpose of the resurrection to give life to one who has died or is it to give a body to one who could not die?

[divaD]

The fact that Rev 14:11 says "they have no rest day nor night" strongly suggests to me that the wicked will not be annihilated but will be tormented forever. How else can we make sense of them not having "rest day nor night"?

For one thing, the context has nothing to do with the LOF. It has to do with the trumpet and bowl judgments. That's what they have no rest day or night from. For example, note the following.

Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Let's see.. verse 5 and 6 states this...And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Hmmm...they're being tormented I see...for 5 months even...and it goes on to say..in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Really makes you wonder if any of these will be resting anytime day or night? My guess would be that they would have no rest day nor night because they're being tormented. And this is only one of the trumpet judgments. Imagine what it would have to be like day and night for those that worship the beast? How could any of them rest day or night, the fact all these judgments from God, are coming at them left and right? Then there are the earthquakes, the hail, etc. Why anyone would think Rev 14 has anything to do with the LOF, that has always puzzled me.

[Robert Callow]

The fact that Rev 14:11 says "they have no rest day nor night" strongly suggests to me that the wicked will not be annihilated but will be tormented forever. How else can we make sense of them not having "rest day nor night"? I don't see how that could possibly apply to them being annihilated. It seems clear to me that in order for them to not have rest day nor night would require them to be conscious.

Revelation14:9-11 also speaks clearly to me of everlasting torment: (9) Then athird angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on hisforehead or on his hand, (10) he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." But please note, we are being told here of everlasting torment coming only upon those who will worship the beast and his image and receive his mark on their forehead or on their hand. In other words, this passage does not in any way tell us all of the damned will be condemned to suffer like those worshippers mentioned here.



Furthermore, those demonic worshippers of Revelation 14:9-11 can be seen worshipping the beast and his image during a period when "the everlasting gospel" is being proclaimed "to those who dwell on the earth - to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people", as Revelation 14:6-7 explains. In which case, this judgement announced by the third angel on those demonic worshippers looks like being made not just because they were found worshipping the beast and his image and were seen to have received his mark, but also because they were made fully aware of God. Such as these will offend with all the lust and venom of Satan himself. They shall revile and slander the Spirit and by their constant hatred and contempt for God they will bring the greater damnation upon themselves.

[The Beginner]

Why anyone would think Rev 14 has anything to do with the LOF, that has always puzzled me.

Hey DivaD

I think there are several logical conclusions people make that tie Rev 14 with LOF...

1. In Revelation 14 the angel is pronouncing a warning that those that take the mark of the beast shall be judged. The implication is that those who disobey this warning will eventually receive the wrath of God. It is not talking about being judged at that moment (before the Bowls), but rather a future consequence for their disobedience... Thus the words "shall be" is inserted to let us know it is the future result..

2. Both Rev 14 and 20 are very similar in nature... It would be odd to not see these as two separate realities... Both mention being "tormented". Both mention "fire and brimstone". Both give enduring lengths of "day and night" and "forever and ever". My point is not that you couldn't pull other passages in Revelation that share some of these phrases but none of them have the same level of concentration and similarities as these two... IMO, very few people would read those two passages and not see a natural tie between them.

3. It says they shall "receive the fullness of God's wrath"... The Bowls of Wrath do not have a judgment that includes "tormented with fire and brimstone day and night with smoke ascending forever for those who receive the mark". So, what other judgement could represent the fullness of God's wrath if not the LOF...

My question to you is this... You seem to believe that Revelation 20:10 is a judgment on the Beast, False Prophet and Devil and it specifically states they will experience torment forever and Matt 25:41 states that the goats will be "depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"... So they are both going to the same place. And in Rev 14 and 20, both experience judgement with phrases of "day and night" and "forever and ever". Both are said to be "tormented" with "fire and brimstone"... So, how are we to believe that the nature of their judgements are different?

Since your a Premill, do you believe the Beast and False Prophet are people? Are they not going to be tormented day and night forever and ever?

I am also curious to know your definition the following:
Eternal Judgment (Heb 6:2)
Shame and Everlasting Contemt (Dan 12:2)
Everlasting Fire (Matt25:41)
Everlasting Punishment (Matt 25:46)

[shepherdsword]

I can't believe you have the nerve to imply that Jesus taught falsehood in that passage. There is nothing false taught in that passage. It's as if you think He was just making things up that contradicted scripture for no apparent reason. That passage is NOT saying "that to gain salvation you must go to the LAW.". Why in the world would Jesus tell a story that would contradict the truth? He wouldn't have.

It is true that if someone was not willing to repent at the teachings of Moses and the prophets then they could not be persuaded to repent by the teachings of someone who rose from the dead, either. What basis is there for thinking that is not true? That passage has nothing to do with saying that "to gain salvation you must go to the LAW", it has to do with the fact that Moses and the prophets taught and proclaimed the truth that should lead to repentance, so if someone isn't going to repent at their teaching of the truth then what would make anyone think they would repent at the teaching of the truth from someone who rose from the dead?

The thing that escapes many is that this isn't a parable. When proper names are used then it must refer to a real event. "There was a certain beggar named Lazarus" means exactly that. Jesus was giving a recount of a real event.