Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:Originally Posted by shepherdsword
Seems to be a slight conflict here.
Posting Freak
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Seems to be a slight conflict here.
Regular Contributor
***
Edward William Fudge discusses Revelation 14:9-11:
The victims in Revelation 14:9-11 suffer in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. Mounce refers to some intertestamental passages in which the righteous watch the wicked's torment with some delight, but he notes that in Revelation "there is no suggestion that the suffering of the damned takes place in the presence of martyred believers who now rejoice to see their oppressors burning in hell." The Old Testament often speaks of the righteous beholding the evidence of the wicked's destruction, but it does not have them gloating over their actual pain either. God sees the whole process, however, and here the angels do as well. Actual torment is meted out according to the mixture of God's cup. Then, as the next image points out, it is forever memorialized in the smoke which remains.
RISING SMOKE. By now we are seeing that the figures often overlap and that a number of Old Testament passages which mention one also mention others. Just as Sodom presents the figure of burning sulfur, so it contributed the imagery of rising smoke. When Abraham went out the next morning to look on the scene, all he saw was "dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace" (Gen. 19:28). Nothing else remained. All was silent.
Eternal Punishment
The blanket of smoke spoke more eloquently than words of an annihilated city and an ungodly population who would never be seen on earth again. Perhaps John's later vision of the fall of Babylon best focuses on the real point at issue (Rev. 18). A voice from heaven calls on God to balance the wicked city's glory and luxury with equal measure of "torture" and grief (v. 7). This is our same word, and it clearly calls for conscious suffering. But when God answers this prayer with plagues of death, mourning and famine, He then destroys the city with a consuming fire (v. 8). Merchants and kings bewail the "torment" they see, but all they behold is the rising smoke of a destruction now completed (vv. 10,18). The scene reminds us of Abraham looking out over the site of what had been Sodom, seeing nothing now but rising smoke. The conscious torment is past; the reality of its destruction continues; the smoke is its silent but powerful witness (cf. Rev. 19:3).
No Rest Day or Night. We may describe an action or event several ways with reference to time. We might talk of a kind of time. Paul worked and prayed "night and day" (1 Thess. 2:9; 3:10), but he did neither nonstop. Sometimes he prayed at nighttime, sometimes at daytime the same may be said for his working. The Greek expresses this kind-of-time by the genitive case form. Or we might speak of a point of time. Peter would deny Jesus in a particular night (Mark 14:30). The Greek expresses point-of-time by the locative case. Or one might speak of a duration of time. Jesus spoke of the seed which sprouts and grows "night and day" (Mark 4:27). All day the seed is growing; all night it is growing too. The Greek expresses this duration-of-time by the accusative case.
John here writes that these wicked people have no rest "day or night" in the genitive case, speaking of kind-of-time. They are not guaranteed rest during the day and there is no certain hope that relief will come at night. This does not say within itself that the suffering lasts all day and all night (although that may be true), but that in neither case are they immune to it. John uses the same genitival "day and night" to describe the living creatures praising (Rev. 4:8), the martyrs serving (Rev. 7:15), Satan accusing (Rev. 12:10), and the unholy trinity being tormented (Rev. 20:10). In each case the thought is the same: the action described is not by nature a daytime action, nor is it a nighttime action. It happens either and both. Guillebaud is therefore correct when he writes that these words "certainly say that there will be no break or intermission in the suffering of the followers of the Beast, while it continues; but in themselves they do not say that it will continue for ever." The first three figures in the passage all either indicate or are agreeable to the idea that the suffering finally ends in total extinction and desolation.
Senior Member
While we are on this subject I would like to get the opinions of those that believe in Annihilation on this verse:
Mat 25:46 NIV - [46] "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
If "Eternal Life" is an endless experiential reality then how can "eternal punishment" be temporary?
Both use the same greek word for "eternal" and IMO the nature of the two should hermeneutically be seen similar in nature. What in that passage would indicate that eternal life and eternal punishment are different in duration?
המשיח הגיע בבשר
The conflict is only due to your lack of understanding. If proper names are actually used then it must refer to an actual event...otherwise it's a lie.
Lord,one thing I ask...use me for your glory.
Regular Contributor
***
EVERLASTING CONTEMPT: I have dealt with everlasting contempt. God is not going to allow people to hold Him in contempt for all eternity. So who is going to hold who in contempt. Obviously this is the sentiment of the righteous toward the wicked.
ETERNAL FIRE: Does "eternal fire" clearly denote either conscious experience, or a continual burning flame which causes endless suffering? Or could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction? Interestingly, because something is eternal/everlasting in scripture does not necessitate endless perpetuity of action. For example, as you bring out Beginner, the scripture speaks of "Eternal Judgment", Hebrews 6:2, not in the sense that the final judgment scene will be reenacted day after day for eternity, but that a final judgment will be made that will have eternal consequences for the wicked.
- Similarly, rather than denoting an endless process of ongoing
torture, could "eternal fire" be descriptive of a destruction
which is unending in the sense that it is eternally irreversible?
- In other words, could the consequences of the fire be eternal
and not the burning process itself?
Regular Contributor
***
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT": Does the word "punishment" or the words "eternal" and "punishment" together imply or necessitate torment? In other words, does eternal punishment = eternal punishing?
To Punish (according to Webster's) is
1. to impose a penalty on for a fault or crime.
2. to inflict a penalty for (i.e.. treason with death)
3. to inflict injury on: syn. chasten, discipline, correct.
The Greek "kolasis", used only twice in the New Testament, is the word translated "punishment" in this text. Its primary signification is to "cut off" or prune or lop off; its secondary meaning is to restrain. 13 The primary meaning here would suggest that while the righteous go to life, the wicked are forever deprived of or "cut off" from life. 14 About kolasis, Fudge says;
The Septuagint puts 'kolasis' for mikshol, which means a
stumbling block that leads to ruin. The word Jesus uses is
applied to the Egyptian plague (Wisdom of Sol.11:13; 16:2; 24)
but also to their death in the Red Sea (Wisdom of Sol.19:4).
It refers to punishment by death in I Samuel 25:31 and Ezekiel
21:15. "Punishment" may certainly include conscious pain, as
in all the examples above, but it does not have to. The same
word is applied to an idol of wood or stone in Wisdom of
Solomon 14:10, which says that, "that which was made [idol]
shall be punished together with him that made it" 15
- Could the "eternal punishment" of the wicked simply be
"eternal death" or "everlasting destruction"?
המשיח הגיע בבשר
It is not God who will be held in contempt for all of eternity. It is the wicked.
Eternal fire is necessary for everlasting torment. Neither of which are metaphors.ETERNAL FIRE: Does "eternal fire" clearly denote either conscious experience, or a continual burning flame which causes endless suffering? Or could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction? Interestingly, because something is eternal/everlasting in scripture does not necessitate endless perpetuity of action. For example, as you bring out Beginner, the scripture speaks of "Eternal Judgment", Hebrews 6:2, not in the sense that the final judgment scene will be reenacted day after day for eternity, but that a final judgment will be made that will have eternal consequences for the wicked.
No.- Similarly, rather than denoting an endless process of ongoing
torture, could "eternal fire" be descriptive of a destruction
which is unending in the sense that it is eternally irreversible?
- In other words, could the consequences of the fire be eternal
and not the burning process itself?
Senior Member
Lets think about the passage your arguing here...
Mat 25:41 NIV - [41] "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now, this "eternal fire" is specifically link to the consequences that the Devil will face... Revelation 20 tells us that the devil will be tormented in fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever?
Rev 20:10 NIV - [10] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Then later in the passage in Matthew 25, Jesus further clarifies the issue...
Mat 25:46 NIV - [46] "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Do you believe that eternal life is an ageless experience? How could eternal punishment be anything less. It is found in the same sentence and contrasted with eternal life. They have to be similar in nature or else it makes no sense to contrast the two. If Jesus meant "temporary punishment" or "eventual annihilation" then He could have used a lot better language than "eternal punishment"... How does a individual receive "eternal punishment" temporarily? If they eventual cease to exist, then the punishment would eventually cease to be exist also, which would infact make it not "eternal punishment"...
Senior Member
There is absolutely no difference in your statement between "eternal punishment" and simply "punishment". I agree that punishment can be a one time event with no lasting experience... But why include "eternal". What is the point?
Can I ask a different question? Let suppose that Jesus actually believe in eternal conscious torment. What language should the bible have used to make it more clear that this is the case... In other words, can you formulate a sentence that would better describe eternal conscious torment better than "they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"?
If forever and ever does not mean "never ending" and if "everlasting" doesn't mean "lasting forever" and "eternal" does not mean "for eternity", then what does?
Posting Freak
A real event in the present, in the past or prophetic of the future? After all Jesus was the Prophet.
Posting Freak
Eternal punishment - Eternal death
Had it said eternal punishing - then you would have a case for a continuing condition.
This scripture needs to reconcile with Rom 6:23, Mat 10:28 and John 3:16. Unless you believe that there can be contradictory scriptures...
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
If you believe the scripture can be broken, then the whole discussion is a moot point.
Last edited by John 8:32; May 8th 2012 at 06:12 PM. Reason: improved thought
Posting Freak
Again, I quote scripture...
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Posting Freak
Easy, eternal death...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How about this eternal fire...It is found in the same sentence and contrasted with eternal life. They have to be similar in nature or else it makes no sense to contrast the two. If Jesus meant "temporary punishment" or "eventual annihilation" then He could have used a lot better language than "eternal punishment"... How does a individual receive "eternal punishment" temporarily? If they eventual cease to exist, then the punishment would eventually cease to be exist also, which would infact make it not "eternal punishment"...
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? Or was the fire an eternal punishment?
Posting Freak
Holding something or someone in contempt for eternity does not require them to live for eternity.
Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning?Eternal fire is necessary for everlasting torment. Neither of which are metaphors.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Got some scripture to back that up do we?- Similarly, rather than denoting an endless process of ongoing
torture, could "eternal fire" be descriptive of a destruction
which is unending in the sense that it is eternally irreversible?
- In other words, could the consequences of the fire be eternal
and not the burning process itself?
No.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Yes, exactly. The dead bodies of those who are physically dead will be raised from the dead and brought back to life. Bodily death is the separation of the spirit from the body (James 2:26) and the bodily resurrection of the dead is when the spirit returns to the body to bring the body back to life.
He died bodily for our sins according to the scripture. It was only His body that died and was placed in the tomb. His spirit went to paradise to be with the Father (Luke 23:43-46).And back in verse's 3,4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that the body of Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that his body was buried, and that his body rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that his body
6 After that his body
7 After that his body
8 And last of all his body
Yes, He physically, bodily died for our sins.Did the grown up, sinless man child Jesus die for sin?
The purpose of a bodily resurrection is to give bodily life back to the one who had bodily died.Is the purpose of the resurrection to give life to one who has died or is it to give a body to one who could not die?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks