ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[nimblewillsgrace]

I am not an Old Testament student, but I would think that Jesus' parable of Lazarus the beggar, in Luke 16:19-31, would only incorporate truth and no false teachings.

So do you believe that we go to Abraham's Bosom?

Do you believe that a person could carry on a casual conversation in hell?

Is it possible that heaven and hell are so close to each other that a conversation can be held between the inhabitants of heaven and hell?

Can those in heaven look down and see people burning in hell?

Can they hear the screams?

Would a finger dipped in water lesson the torment in a burning hell?

How large is Abraham's large bosom if it contains all the elect who go there?

[John 8:32]

Eric,

Man became dead in his sins after eating from the tree, but he was also removed from the tree of life, meaning he would no longer have access to immortality. Abiding in Christ is like eating from the tree of life--the tree of life is now accessible once again, if you will.

I'm curious, what do you think the OT saints experienced after Christ's resurrection that they weren't already experiencing before Christ's resurrection?

Nothing, they are sound asleep. Unconscious. Awaiting a resurrection from the dead. They have not yet received the promises including...

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[John146]

Exactly, they are dead, will be resurrected

That means they were not "created to be a temporary, physical being that could die, go back to the dust and be no more". If they were then why would they be resurrected? So, I don't see what point you were trying to make with your statement that man was created to be a temporary, physical being that could die, go back to the dust and be no more.". That clearly is not true because if it was then there would be no resurrection of the dead.

and some will receive eternal life as a gift, but others will receive damnation. But man was not created as an immortal, he was created with mortality and the opportunity to receive immortality.

Do you see eternal life as being merely eternal existence? Is eternal life not much more than just that? I can see the opposite of mere eternal existence as being annihilation but not the opposite of an eternal life of bliss in God's presence.

[LookingUp]

Nothing, they are sound asleep. Unconscious. Awaiting a resurrection from the dead. They have not yet received the promises including...

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

But Paul also says we've already been made alive (Eph. 2:1). If we have truly been made alive (and possess eternal life NOW), how can we ever be dead?

Who are the captives that Christ led captive (Eph. 4:8)?

Who are the spirits now in prison to whom Christ made proclamation (1 Peter 3:19)?

Who are the souls crying out to the Lord (Rev. 6:9-10)?

edit to add:

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11). How will they die if Jesus promises they will never die?

[John 8:32]

That means they were not "created to be a temporary, physical being that could die, go back to the dust and be no more". If they were then why would they be resurrected? So, I don't see what point you were trying to make with your statement that man was created to be a temporary, physical being that could die, go back to the dust and be no more.". That clearly is not true because if it was then there would be no resurrection of the dead.

Being made temporary means that man could not wind up in teh same predicament as Satan. Live forever in misery and torment making everyone he comes in contact with miserable. Man was created with a choice, the real truth is that most have not had a chance to make that choice yet. Fro example, how many Chinese 3000 years ago chose based on this truth...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Or how many Amalekites for that matter?

Do you see eternal life as being merely eternal existence? Is eternal life not much more than just that? I can see the opposite of mere eternal existence as being annihilation but not the opposite of an eternal life of bliss in God's presence.

Of course not, I do not see eternal life as mere existence...

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We have not even begun to dream of the wonderful future we will have for all eternity with God.

[John146]

Eric,

Man became dead in his sins after eating from the tree, but he was also removed from the tree of life, meaning he would no longer have access to immortality.

How are you coming to this conclusion? I would say man's removal from the tree of life meant he would no longer have access to an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God (unless God made that possible again, which He obviously did).

Abiding in Christ is like eating from the tree of life--the tree of life is now accessible once again, if you will.

Please tell me your understanding of the eternal life that believers will receive. Is it merely eternal existence or is it more than just that? It seems like those of you who believe in annihilation see eternal life as being equivalent to eternal existence and then because of that you naturally see the opposite of that as being the eternal cessation of existence (annihilation). But I wonder if you thought of eternal life as eternal bliss in the presence of God rather than just eternal existence, whether or not you would still see annihilation as being the opposite of eternal life.

I'm curious, what do you think the OT saints experienced after Christ's resurrection that they weren't already experiencing before Christ's resurrection?

I'm not really sure. If Abraham's bosom is a different place than paradise (the third heaven) then they were experiencing a different place. Obviously, before the Word became flesh OT saints did not know Him as Jesus so there was a chance in the sense of them worshiping Him as Jesus. Scripture doesn't really go into much detail on that as far as I know. Why do you ask?

[John146]

But Paul also says we've already been made alive (Eph. 2:1). If we have truly been made alive (and possess eternal life NOW), how can we ever be dead?

Exactly. Do we lose the spiritual life we have now in Christ just because of physical death only to regain it again when we're bodily resurrected from the dead? Absolutely not! Paul knew better than that which is why he said this:

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Clearly, Paul believed that by physically dying he would depart the earth and go be with Christ. That means he was saying his spirit would go be with Christ upon his physical death. The spirit doesn't die when we physically die, it separates from our body (James 2:26) and goes to be with Christ.

Who are the souls crying out to the Lord (Rev. 6:9-10)?

It would be hard for them to do that if they had no consciousness, wouldn't it?

[John146]

Being made temporary means that man could not wind up in teh same predicament as Satan. Live forever in misery and torment making everyone he comes in contact with miserable. Man was created with a choice, the real truth is that most have not had a chance to make that choice yet. Fro example, how many Chinese 3000 years ago chose based on this truth...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Or how many Amalekites for that matter?

Does that verse not apply to OT saints? Are OT saints saved any other way than through faith and the blood of Christ that was shed for the sins of all people? Their sins are forgiven through faith and are washed away by the blood of Christ just as ours are, right? The difference is that Christ had not come yet in their time so they didn't place their faith directly in Christ the way we do now, but their salvation depended on whether or not they repented and had faith just as is the case now. So, if they can be judged by that standard then why would "many Chinese 3000 years ago" and the Amalekites not be judged by the same standard as the OT saints who lived and died before Christ came to the earth? They obviously couldn't have been expected to put their faith in Christ before He even came to the earth, but will they not be judged based on what Paul described here:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And here:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Notice in the Romans 2 passage how eternal life is not contrasted with annihilation but rather with "indignation and wrath" and that "glory, honor and peace" will be given to the righteous while "tribulation and anguish" will come upon the wicked. I don't think "tribulation and anguish" sounds like annihilation to me.

These people you mentioned already had their chance to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him and follow Him and His ways. Scripture never teaches that people get a second chance after they die. Instead, it says this:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Where do you see anything about people being given second chances after they die here or anywhere else in scripture?

Of course not, I do not see eternal life as mere existence...

Then why do you see eternal punishment as mere annihilation?

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We have not even begun to dream of the wonderful future we will have for all eternity with God.

Right. So, why would the opposite of that be annihilation? It makes sense to me that the wicked will receive the opposite of what the righteous receive and the opposite of what is described there would not be annihilation but rather would be eternal misery apart from God while missing out on all the amazing things that we will receive and experience.

[LookingUp]

How are you coming to this conclusion? I would say man's removal from the tree of life meant he would no longer have access to an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God (unless God made that possible again, which He obviously did).

You’re just adding prepositional phrases (i.e. “of” bliss, “in” the presence…). We believe the same thing. I mean, obviously, who cares about eternal life anyway if it’s outside of God? Of course, that’s an impossibility anyway.

Please tell me your understanding of the eternal life that believers will receive. Is it merely eternal existence or is it more than just that?

Eternal life is God—“I am life.” There is no life outside of God. Having God means having life. Not having God means having death. People walking around without God do not possess life even though they are "alive" (they are the walking dead). Without God/life in them, they will eventually expire. Sure, they'll be raised long enough to see judgement, but even as raised, they have no life in them (i.e. they're not in the book of life).

I'm not really sure. If Abraham's bosom is a different place than paradise (the third heaven) then they were experiencing a different place. Obviously, before the Word became flesh OT saints did not know Him as Jesus so there was a chance in the sense of them worshiping Him as Jesus. Scripture doesn't really go into much detail on that as far as I know. Why do you ask?

I’m wondering how they could have experienced the promise “he who believes in me will live even if he dies” when Christ had not yet come.

[John146]

You’re just adding prepositional phrases (i.e. “of” bliss, “in” the presence…). We believe the same thing. I mean, obviously, who cares about eternal life anyway if it’s outside of God? Of course, that’s an impossibility anyway.

I added those for a reason. We should not contrast the fate of the wicked with mere eternal existence but with an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God. To me the opposite of eternal existence would be annihilation but the opposite of an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God would be eternal misery apart from the presence of God. In Romans 2:7-8 Paul contrasts the "eternal life" the righteous receive with the "indignation and wrath" the wicked receive and in verses 9 and 10 he contrasts "glory, honour, and peace" that will be given to the righteous with the "tribulation and anguish" that the wicked will experience. That tells me that the righteous will receive an eternal life of "glory, honour and peace" while the wicked will receive eternal indignation and wrath resulting in them going through "tribulation and anguish". I don't see that he was contrasting eternal life with annihilation at all there but rather eternal life with eternal suffering.

Eternal life is God—“I am life.” There is no life outside of God. Having God means having life. Not having God means having death.

But is death annihilation? I've pointed out a number of times now how being dead in sins is not being annihilated in sins and being physically dead is not being annihilated so why would the second death have anything to do with annihilation? These other types of death resulted in separation rather than annihilation so I see no reason why the second death will not be the same in that sense.

People walking around without God do not possess life even though they are "alive" (they are the walking dead).

Yes, so that shows that someone can be alive and dead at the same time. That's how I understand the second death, as far as the wicked being in one sense alive and in another sense dead once they experience the second death by being cast into the lake of fire. The wicked will be dead in the sense of being separated from a life of bliss in the presence of God but they will be alive in the sense of experiencing conscious torment.

Without God/life in them, they will eventually expire.

What are you basing this statement on?

[LookingUp]

I added those for a reason. We should not contrast the fate of the wicked with mere eternal existence but with an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God.

I understand what you’re trying to say, because I also believed this way for a very long time. But OT texts led me to see things differently (i.e. death = complete destruction). And NT texts led me to the beautiful realization that Life = God/Jesus. No God/Jesus, no Life. No God/Jesus = complete destruction. When I say “Life” I’m not talking about walking around breathing. Even the dead do that. I’m talking about LIFE. Life has no meaning without “God” in its definition. So, the dead either walk around with an expiration date or the dead are completely destroyed having met their expiration date.

To me the opposite of eternal existence would be annihilation but the opposite of an eternal life of bliss in the presence of God would be eternal misery apart from the presence of God.

The idea of eternal existence is misleading. There’s life (God) and the opposite of that, which is death (no God which = complete destruction).

In Romans 2:7-8 Paul contrasts the "eternal life" the righteous receive with the "indignation and wrath" the wicked receive and in verses 9 and 10 he contrasts "glory, honour, and peace" that will be given to the righteous with the "tribulation and anguish" that the wicked will experience. That tells me that the righteous will receive an eternal life of "glory, honour and peace" while the wicked will receive eternal indignation and wrath resulting in them going through "tribulation and anguish". I don't see that he was contrasting eternal life with annihilation at all there but rather eternal life with eternal suffering.

I think you need to take out the “eternal” altogether to get where I’m coming from. There’s only two options: life or death.

There are those who sow goodness in perseverance and they will reap glory/honor/immortality (i.e. eternal life/God), and there are those who sow unrighteousness in selfish ambitions and they will reap wrath/indignation (i.e. death/no God). Those who sow unrighteousness will experience tribulation and distress and those who sow goodness will experience glory/honor/peace NOW and at judgement.

Yes, so that shows that someone can be alive and dead at the same time.

The breath of God is on loan. Once that extinguishes, there is nothing to keep the man functional. Only those who have God/Life within them possess what is known as “Life.”

What are you basing this statement on?

Without the breath of God, they’re gone. Does God give the breath of life to those in the lake of fire?

[nimblewillsgrace]

Hey can you folks address these questions? Seems they were overlooked or ignored.

So do you believe that we go to Abraham's Bosom?

Do you believe that a person could carry on a casual conversation in hell?

Is it possible that heaven and hell are so close to each other that a conversation can be held between the inhabitants of heaven and hell?

Can those in heaven look down and see people burning in hell?

Can they hear the screams?

Would a finger dipped in water lesson the torment in a burning hell?

How large is Abraham's large bosom if it contains all the elect who go there?

[John 8:32]

You’re just adding prepositional phrases (i.e. “of” bliss, “in” the presence…). We believe the same thing. I mean, obviously, who cares about eternal life anyway if it’s outside of God? Of course, that’s an impossibility anyway.

Eternal life is God—“I am life.” There is no life outside of God. Having God means having life. Not having God means having death. People walking around without God do not possess life even though they are "alive" (they are the walking dead). Without God/life in them, they will eventually expire. Sure, they'll be raised long enough to see judgement, but even as raised, they have no life in them (i.e. they're not in the book of life).

They do not have life, they have a temporary electro-chemical existence from combining clay with the breath of life. When the breath leaves, the result is death...

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The blackness of nothingness. His thoughts perish.

I’m wondering how they could have experienced the promise “he who believes in me will live even if he dies” when Christ had not yet come.

By faith in the fulfillment of the Schoolmaster. Teh Schoolmaster being the animal sacrifices that point to Christ and His sacrifice once for all. Remember faith is not just a New Testament concept. Right here is the appropriate time to read Hebrews 11.

[John 8:32]

We have discussed this several times before on several different pages and I think we must agree to disagree, but anyhoo I'll answer one more time.

Does that verse not apply to OT saints? Are OT saints saved any other way than through faith and the blood of Christ that was shed for the sins of all people? Their sins are forgiven through faith and are washed away by the blood of Christ just as ours are, right? The difference is that Christ had not come yet in their time so they didn't place their faith directly in Christ the way we do now, but their salvation depended on whether or not they repented and had faith just as is the case now.

Actually, I see this differently. Their faith was in Christ. Christ was not unknown in those times...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Christ appeared to some, but not all. And again...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Either this statement is true or it is false.

So, if they can be judged by that standard then why would "many Chinese 3000 years ago" and the Amalekites not be judged by the same standard as the OT saints who lived and died before Christ came to the earth?

Again, Acts 4:12

They obviously couldn't have been expected to put their faith in Christ before He even came to the earth, but will they not be judged based on what Paul described here:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And here:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Is today the only day of salvation? Revelation 20:11-12 says no. This passage says that people will be resurrected again and have the Bible (books plural, all 66 of them) opened to their understanding, just as Christ has to do for the Apostles...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

and they will be judged according to what?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

They are judged according to what they understand now from the books of the Bible and how they apply them. There is only one hint in God's word as to how long this period of time is...

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So for 100 years, all those who never had a chance will get their chance. They will be judged by exactly the same criteria we are judged today. How they apply what they learn about the Father and Christ in their lives. They are then judged according to their works, just as we are.

Notice in the Romans 2 passage how eternal life is not contrasted with annihilation but rather with "indignation and wrath" and that "glory, honor and peace" will be given to the righteous while "tribulation and anguish" will come upon the wicked. I don't think "tribulation and anguish" sounds like annihilation to me.

These people you mentioned already had their chance to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him and follow Him and His ways. Scripture never teaches that people get a second chance after they die. Instead, it says this:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Where do you see anything about people being given second chances after they die here or anywhere else in scripture?

Then why do you see eternal punishment as mere annihilation?

Right. So, why would the opposite of that be annihilation? It makes sense to me that the wicked will receive the opposite of what the righteous receive and the opposite of what is described there would not be annihilation but rather would be eternal misery apart from God while missing out on all the amazing things that we will receive and experience.

After reading Rom 2, I simply read...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[LookingUp]

They do not have life, they have a temporary electro-chemical existence from combining clay with the breath of life. When the breath leaves, the result is death...

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The blackness of nothingness. His thoughts perish.



By faith in the fulfillment of the Schoolmaster. Teh Schoolmaster being the animal sacrifices that point to Christ and His sacrifice once for all. Remember faith is not just a New Testament concept. Right here is the appropriate time to read Hebrews 11.

Can you answer post #229?