ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[Hawkins]

Hey can you folks address these questions? Seems they were overlooked or ignored.

People normally go to Hades after death. In order to go to Abraham's Bosom, you need to be "carried", say, by the angels (see Christ's parable). Naturally we decend to Hades.

Yes, people keep talking in Hades. You will hear your own native tongue as the language barrier will be gone (this is not biblical yet, it's a result of research and personal experience).

Time-space is something humans never understand fully (as proven by today's science), so everything is possible at the presence of God. If God would like to make people talk from heaven to hell, He CAN (as a matter of His omnipotence)! Moreover, according to Paul's experience, he's in the third heaven when he couldn't even distinguish whether it's in body or out of body. I am not surprised if one can talk from heaven to hell. Both heaven and Hades are a matter of spaces.

Again, if that's what God wants, that you can look down from heaven to see that the worms won't die while the fire won't quench.

Yes, if God allows, you may hear the screams too. However, in a complete separation, no one has the interest to look at what's already outside God's realm. Or else, it won't be called a separation.

You have to taste yourself or ask those in such a burning hell to know. It's not happened yet. We as humans don't know the future.

Does size/space matter to God? Take a look at the universe and you shall know that space is never a problem.

[John 8:32]

Can you answer post #229?

But Paul also says we've already been made alive (Eph. 2:1). If we have truly been made alive (and possess eternal life NOW), how can we ever be dead?

It is a matter of timing. When are we made alive? First of all, let’s look at some of the greats, the Bible hall of fame…

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

David was very close to God, he thought like God, had a heart like God. Where is David today?

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

How about Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

There is a promised resurrection of the righteous…

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Who are the captives that Christ led captive (Eph. 4:8)?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Doesn’t say captives, says captivity. What it says is that He removed the captivity and took it under His control. He made the captivity we suffered from, the death sentence, His captive. Under His control.

Who are the spirits now in prison to whom Christ made proclamation (1 Peter 3:19)?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Time frame?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These spirits are not human, again notice the time frame…

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Who are the souls crying out to the Lord (Rev. 6:9-10)?

This is a metaphor, just as…

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

God uses metaphors and allegories. How do we know that this is a metaphor, it is in direct contradiction to the straightforward scriptures we just read about a resurrection from the dead. Could these dead saints really be talking…

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

edit to add:

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11). How will they die if Jesus promises they will never die?

Of course I believe this. This is my only hope, a resurrection from the dead to eternal life…

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

When?

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just as I said at the start, it is a matter of timing.

[Hawkins]

In the end a matter what people want to believe instead of what God/Bible/Church would like to say.

Humans are arrogant. So they don't want to believe an eternal hell. They thus judge God to say that if there's an eternal hell there, God must have done something wrong.

We humans are not in any position to judge God even when God said that hell is eternal. If hell exists and is eternal, God has a reason to let it be so, with or without human understanding. Humans with little faith, with self-righteousness will lose their faith over this.

Satan will be burnt forever, you may have fewer problems with this. However, after leaving God, no one will be able to guarantee that humans won't go beyond what the fallen angels will be. They can be more evil in nature than Satan in a sense that they are designed with a full blown freewill.

It's a one way ticket if you decide to leave God. That's actually how freewill is designed. That is, in front of true choices, people with true freewill will divide.

God's plan is to build an eternal realm named the Kingdom in Heaven. And it was proven through Adam that men with little faith and unwilling to be obedient will have to be driven out of God's Kingdom (like Eden).

Humans are getting worse and worse after that, as a matter of freewill that God ever decided to destroy them all in Noah's age. That actually reflected that when leaving God's Kingdom (whether it is Satan or humans), humans can't go any better. The analogy is that when leaves detached from the trunk of the tree, they keep decaying to the point that they will be burnt.

The point is, you will be in a complete separation from God because you are not selected to be in Heaven (because you won't be able to live there due to the lack of faith and obedience), and while love belongs to God so in such a separation you no longer have love inside you. The only way you can be is just like being prophesied, you will lose all you humanity over time and will become a satan yourself.

God let you be what you are when you are still human, once you changed to a demon of some kind. It doesn't matter if you are burnt or not, or you are burnt forever or not.


The whole situation is actually repeating Adam's fault, as Adam (humans) rather wanted to believe that "we are not surely die". It's just another fruit on the tree for humans to choose the same by neglecting what God says, due to the lack of faith and obedience, relying on the knowledge of self-righteousness (right or wrong),

Moreover, "no hell' is actually an anti-Christ doctrine. Because the Bible clearly says that you need to believe in Jesus and abide by the New Covenant to be saved. However the 'no hell' doctrine ridicules what the Bible says by conveying the message that "You will be saved anyway, with or without Jesus Christ, with or without the New Covenant".

In a nutshell, under the influence of the anti-Christ/Satan, you taste the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil again to say that "you shall not surely die".

At last but not least, if you provide annihilation as an alternative to say the message that one can reject Jesus Christ as long as he choose to annihilate, if you provide such an alternative relief and it turns out that you are in mistake, you will be a murderer in this case and will be held responsible for the lost souls who listened and believed your offer but turn out to be in hell. That's the warning!

[John 8:32]

In the end a matter what people want to believe instead of what God/Bible/Church would like to say.

Humans are arrogant. So they don't want to believe an eternal hell. They thus judge God to say that if there's an eternal hell there, God must have done something wrong.

We humans are not in any position to judge God even when God said that hell is eternal. If hell exists and is eternal, God has a reason to let it be so, with or without human understanding. Humans with little faith, with self-righteousness will lose their faith over this.

Satan will be burnt forever, you may have fewer problems with this. However, after leaving God, no one will be able to guarantee that humans won't go beyond what the fallen angels will be. They can be more evil in nature than Satan in a sense that they are designed with a full blown freewill.

It's a one way ticket if you decide to leave God. That's actually how freewill is designed. That is, in front of true choices, people with true freewill will divide.

God's plan is to build an eternal realm named the Kingdom in Heaven. And it was proven through Adam that men with little faith and unwilling to be obedient will have to be driven out of God's Kingdom (like Eden).

Humans are getting worse and worse after that, as a matter of freewill that God ever decided to destroy them all in Noah's age. That actually reflected that when leaving God's Kingdom (whether it is Satan or humans), humans can't go any better. The analogy is that when leaves detached from the trunk of the tree, they keep decaying to the point that they will be burnt.

The point is, you will be in a complete separation from God because you are not selected to be in Heaven (because you won't be able to live there due to the lack of faith and obedience), and while love belongs to God so in such a separation you no longer have love inside you. The only way you can be is just like being prophesied, you will lose all you humanity over time and will become a satan yourself.

God let you be what you are when you are still human, once you changed to a demon of some kind. It doesn't matter if you are burnt or not, or you are burnt forever or not.


The whole situation is actually repeating Adam's fault, as Adam (humans) rather wanted to believe that "we are not surely die". It's just another fruit on the tree for humans to choose the same by neglecting what God says, due to the lack of faith and obedience, relying on the knowledge of self-righteousness (right or wrong),

Moreover, "no hell' is actually an anti-Christ doctrine. Because the Bible clearly says that you need to believe in Jesus and abide by the New Covenant to be saved. However the 'no hell' doctrine ridicules what the Bible says by conveying the message that "You will be saved anyway, with or without Jesus Christ, with or without the New Covenant".

In a nutshell, under the influence of the anti-Christ/Satan, you taste the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil again to say that "you shall not surely die".

At last but not least, if you provide annihilation as an alternative to say the message that one can reject Jesus Christ as long as he choose to annihilate, if you provide such an alternative relief and it turns out that you are in mistake, you will be a murderer in this case and will be held responsible for the lost souls who listened and believed your offer but turn out to be in hell. That's the warning!

There you go again with "Thou shalt not surely die."

[LookingUp]

Nothing, they are sound asleep. Unconscious. Awaiting a resurrection from the dead. They have not yet received the promises including...

Thank you for your answers in above post. When you say they are unconscious, you believe that they are "dead" in a different way than one is "dead" in the lake of fire?

Also, what do you think Jesus meant when he said that everyone who believes in him will never die?

How do you interpret:

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

[John 8:32]

Thank you for your answers in above post. When you say they are unconscious, you believe that they are "dead" in a different way than one is "dead" in the lake of fire?

Total and complete unconsciousness. No life, no thought, nothing. This death is, well, death. They will remain in this state until Christ returns. At His return the resurrection occurs and they are given life, eternal life. This scripture gives the time frame...

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Also, what do you think Jesus meant when he said that everyone who believes in him will never die?

At the resurrection of life, the return of Christ, those in Christ are given life and can never die. They have the gift of eternal life at this point.

How do you interpret:

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

In living, Paul would continue to do Christ's work. If he died, his next conscious thought would be in the Kingdom of God with Christ having had this accomplished in him...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[LookingUp]

Total and complete unconsciousness. No life, no thought, nothing. This death is, well, death. They will remain in this state until Christ returns. At His return the resurreciton occurs and they are given life, eternal life. This scripture gives the time frame...

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:




At the resurrection of life, the return of Christ, those in Christ are given life and can never die. They have the gift of eternal life at this point.





In living, Paul would continue to do Christ's work. If he died, his next conscious thought would be in the Kingdom of God with Christ having had this accomplished in him...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Thank you. Is what the saint experiences in "death" the same as what the wicked experiences at the second death (the experience while dead)?

[John 8:32]

Thank you. Is what the saint experiences in "death" the same as what the wicked experiences at the second death (the experience while dead)?

I believe so. The saint dies, but is resurrected to eternal life. After all it is appointed unto men once to die, so all die the first death.

The wicked are resurrected and condemned to the second death. The wicked are then burned to death and then are dead forever, as in...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[LookingUp]

At the resurrection of life, the return of Christ, those in Christ are given life and can never die. They have the gift of eternal life at this point.

When John wrote that those who believe currently have eternal life (1 John 5:13), he really meant they'd have it in the future?

John says, "I'm writing to you...so you can know that you have eternal life." If you have life and then you lose it, it wasn't eternal. It stopped. Eternal things don't stop; that's the very definition of the word eternal.

[LookingUp]

I believe so. The saint dies, but is resurrected to eternal life. After all it is appointed unto men once to die, so all die the first death.

The wicked are resurrected and condemned to the second death. The wicked are then burned to death and then are dead forever, as in...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So, for those who die the first death in a fire experience the same as the wicked?

[John146]

I understand what you’re trying to say

I'm glad about that even though you disagree with me. We all spend a lot of time on here just trying to get people to understand what we're saying, so I'm glad that in our case we don't have to waste a lot of time doing that.

because I also believed this way for a very long time.

You shouldn't have stopped.

But OT texts led me to see things differently (i.e. death = complete destruction).

Based on previous discussions of this issue it looked to me that you took some OT passages that only spoke of physical destruction during this age and inappropriately applied them to people being cast into the lake of fire. I'll leave it up to you whether you want to discuss a few of those OT texts here or not.

And NT texts led me to the beautiful realization that Life = God/Jesus. No God/Jesus, no Life. No God/Jesus = complete destruction.

That's where we differ then. To me A Life of Bliss = God/Jesus. No God/Jesus, no Life of Bliss. No God/Jesus = A Life of Misery.

When I say “Life” I’m not talking about walking around breathing. Even the dead do that. I’m talking about LIFE. Life has no meaning without “God” in its definition.

Okay, you told me what you don't mean when you say "Life" but you didn't say exactly what you do mean when you say it. So, please give me a definition for the word "life" as you are using it here.

So, the dead either walk around with an expiration date or the dead are completely destroyed having met their expiration date.

The idea of eternal existence is misleading. There’s life (God) and the opposite of that, which is death (no God which = complete destruction).

Unbelievers are separate from God even now but they are not annihilated. I don't see that no God = annihilation. I see that no God = hopelessness and misery.

I think you need to take out the “eternal” altogether to get where I’m coming from.

I'm not going to do that. Paul mentioned "eternal life" for believers in contrast with something else for unbelievers so it's not right to "take out the eternal altogether".

There’s only two options: life or death.

I agree, but what do you think that means? You equate death with "complete destruction". I equate death with separation. Is being dead in sins complete destruction? No. It means you're separated from God. Is physical death complete destruction? No. It means your spirit has separated from your body (James 2:26). So, where are you getting the idea that death has to mean complete destruction?

There are those who sow goodness in perseverance and they will reap glory/honor/immortality (i.e. eternal life/God), and there are those who sow unrighteousness in selfish ambitions and they will reap wrath/indignation (i.e. death/no God). Those who sow unrighteousness will experience tribulation and distress and those who sow goodness will experience glory/honor/peace NOW and at judgement.

So, how long will the tribulation and distress that the wicked will experience at the judgment (Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth) last? Why would it last for even a second if they're just going to be annihilated anyway?

The breath of God is on loan. Once that extinguishes, there is nothing to keep the man functional. Only those who have God/Life within them possess what is known as “Life.”

Do you have any scriptural support for this? I'm not aware of any scripture which teaches what you're saying here.

Without the breath of God, they’re gone. Does God give the breath of life to those in the lake of fire?

It seems like you are again equating life with mere existence here. Earlier, you acknowledged that eternal life is more than just eternal existence so why are you speaking of life here as merely having breath? Is eternal life just eternal breath or is it more than that?

[LookingUp]

Based on previous discussions of this issue it looked to me that you took some OT passages that only spoke of physical destruction during this age and inappropriately applied them to people being cast into the lake of fire. I'll leave it up to you whether you want to discuss a few of those OT texts here or not.

I don’t recall OT passages specifically qualifying death as “physical.”

Okay, you told me what you don't mean when you say "Life" but you didn't say exactly what you do mean when you say it. So, please give me a definition for the word "life" as you are using it here.

Having life means having God.

Unbelievers are separate from God even now but they are not annihilated.

They’re dead in their sins, which means they don’t possess life/God.

I'm not going to do that. Paul mentioned "eternal life" for believers in contrast with something else for unbelievers so it's not right to "take out the eternal altogether".

It’s not wrong, but it’s perfectly accurate to leave it out as well. “…you are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life” (John 5:40). “…but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). When we’re speaking of the life that God gives us in Christ, “eternal” is inherently part of it. Leaving out the word “eternal” doesn’t take anything away from the definition of “life.” So, as I said, there are only two options: life and death.

I agree, but what do you think that means? You equate death with "complete destruction". I equate death with separation. Is being dead in sins complete destruction? No. It means you're separated from God. Is physical death complete destruction? No. It means your spirit has separated from your body (James 2:26).

It’s the separation that leads to death. As long as there’s breath in their lungs, the “walking dead” (i.e. on their way to death) have an opportunity to live. I equate separation with separation and I equate death with death.

So, where are you getting the idea that death has to mean complete destruction?

Mostly the OT.

So, how long will the tribulation and distress that the wicked will experience at the judgment (Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth) last? Why would it last for even a second if they're just going to be annihilated anyway?

I don’t know how long it will last.

Do you have any scriptural support for this? I'm not aware of any scripture which teaches what you're saying here.

Because it’s written that the breath of God returns to God and that the wicked are utterly destroyed, I’ve come to that conclusion.

It seems like you are again equating life with mere existence here. Earlier, you acknowledged that eternal life is more than just eternal existence so why are you speaking of life here as merely having breath? Is eternal life just eternal breath or is it more than that?

I’m not talking about “Life” here. My question to you is if God gives the breath of life to those existing in the lake of fire. If they have no breath of life and, of course, they don’t possess Jesus/eternal Life, in what way are the alive? I can see how saints are alive even after they are dead, because they possess Jesus/eternal Life. One can’t be dead and also possess eternal life at the same time. But what about the wicked? What do they have that they continue to have life? They won’t have the breath of life in the lake of fire, right? Of course, they won’t have Jesus/Life in the lake of fire. What is it about them that makes them "alive"?

[John146]

I don’t recall OT passages specifically qualifying death as “physical.”

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that you attributed some OT text that spoke of physical destruction that would occur on the earth (like Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood - that type of destruction) to being cast into the lake of fire, instead.

Having life means having God.

Okay. So, can't someone not have God without being annihilated? I would think so.

They’re dead in their sins, which means they don’t possess life/God.

But they're not annihilated, right? That's what I'm trying to get across. Death is not annihilation.

It’s not wrong, but it’s perfectly accurate to leave it out as well.

Remember, we were talking about Romans 2:6-11. So, are you saying the "eternal life" mentioned in Romans 2:7 is not speaking of something that those who "seek for glory and honour and immortality" would have forever?

It’s the separation that leads to death. As long as there’s breath in their lungs, the “walking dead” (i.e. on their way to death) have an opportunity to live. I equate separation with separation and I equate death with death.

But I think your understanding of death is flawed. In the case of being dead in one's sins it's not annihilation and in the case of physical death it's not annihilation so why can't the second death also not have anything to do with annihilation?

Mostly the OT.

Why do you suppose the NT contains few, if any, verses that could be interpreted as possibly supporting your annihilationist view?

I don’t know how long it will last.

Why would it last for even a second if they are just going to be annihilated, anyway? What would be the point of making them suffer for some amount of time and then annihilating them?

Because it’s written that the breath of God returns to God and that the wicked are utterly destroyed, I’ve come to that conclusion.

What are the verses that you base that conclusion on? I know you've shared that before but I don't recall which verses they were. I just looked up all the verses that mention utter destruction and in every case it seems to me that they are only referring to physical destruction occurring upon the earth. Here are a few examples:

Numbers 21:2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.3 And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

Deut 2:33 And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Deut 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

I would say all of these and other verses like these refer only to physical destruction of the wicked on the earth and none of them refer to the wicked being cast into the lake of fire. The point I've tried to make to you is that I think you are taking verses that have the same context as the verses above (physical destruction on the earth) and misapplying them to what people will experience in the lake of fire. Are you sure that you're not taking verses that speak of the utter destruction of the wicked out of context?

I’m not talking about “Life” here. My question to you is if God gives the breath of life to those existing in the lake of fire.

Do you believe the wicked are conscious right now in Hades despite being physically dead, as is portrayed in Luke 16:19-31? If so then I don't see why you would have trouble comprehending how they could be conscious in the lake of fire as well.

If they have no breath of life and, of course, they don’t possess Jesus/eternal Life, in what way are the alive? I can see how saints are alive even after they are dead, because they possess Jesus/eternal Life. One can’t be dead and also possess eternal life at the same time.

You do believe the spirits of the wicked dead are conscious and in torment in Hades right now, don't you? Why couldn't that be the case for them in the lake of fire as well?

But what about the wicked? What do they have that they continue to have life? They won’t have the breath of life in the lake of fire, right? Of course, they won’t have Jesus/Life in the lake of fire. What is it about them that makes them "alive"?

I truly don't understand your line of reasoning here. If they can be conscious in Hades then I see no reason why they can't be conscious in the lake of fire as well.

[LookingUp]

Okay. So, can't someone not have God without being annihilated? I would think so.

Sure. Lots of people deny God and yet He allows them to have the breath of God.

But they're not annihilated, right? That's what I'm trying to get across. Death is not annihilation.

They’re not literally dead; they’re dead in their sin. When it’s written that they’re dead in their sins, do you think they’re literally dead?

Remember, we were talking about Romans 2:6-11. So, are you saying the "eternal life" mentioned in Romans 2:7 is not speaking of something that those who "seek for glory and honour and immortality" would have forever?

Once you have “Life” you have it forever. “Eternal” is inherently part of Life. There’s a difference between being alive (i.e. breathing) and having “Life.” The one who has God reaps Life. The one who does not have God reaps wrath and indignation.

...In the case of being dead in one's sins it's not annihilation

True.

and in the case of physical death it's not annihilation so why can't the second death also not have anything to do with annihilation?

Dead is dead. God can bring back anyone who is dead. God can bring back anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire (i.e. dead, or “annihilated” if you insist). He is God. But, dead is dead, whether it’s the first or second death.

Why do you suppose the NT contains few, if any, verses that could be interpreted as possibly supporting your annihilationist view?

I don’t have an “annihilationist” view. I just believe that death equals death. The only way out of death is Life in Christ. That’s it.

Why would it last for even a second if they are just going to be annihilated, anyway?

I don’t know. But I don’t change my views based on my inability to answer questions. If Scripture doesn’t provide the answer, then I’ve got to be content with what has been taught.

… Are you sure that you're not taking verses that speak of the utter destruction of the wicked out of context?

I feel comfortable that I am not. The wicked are destroyed forevermore (Psalm 92:7). Not only does that mean they are destroyed forevermore “from the earth”; they are destroyed forevermore, period. It wasn't meant merely to be a blessing to those who were righteous; it was meant to be a threat to those who were wicked. The wicked are not (or will not be) “alive” somewhere in the lake of fire; they are DESTROYED FOREVERMORE, PERIOD. They can't be alive and destroyed at the same time. When it is written that the wicked will perish and that like smoke they will vanish away, that doesn’t mean just from the earth; it means that they will VANISH AWAY, PERIOD. They can't be alive and evaporated like smoke at the same time. They will be raised only long enough to see judgment and that’s it.

Do you believe the wicked are conscious right now in Hades despite being physically dead, as is portrayed in Luke 16:19-31?...

I believe that’s a parable, and I’m uncomfortable basing such a serious doctrine on one, single parable.

You do believe the spirits of the wicked dead are conscious and in torment in Hades right now, don't you? Why couldn't that be the case for them in the lake of fire as well?

As I said above, I’m not confident of that.

I truly don't understand your line of reasoning here. If they can be conscious in Hades then I see no reason why they can't be conscious in the lake of fire as well.

As I’ve been exchanging thoughts with you these past couple of posts, I’ve been slowly coming to a new realization. I’m beginning to wonder if the wicked dead are actually conscious at all. As living, breathing individuals they have the breath of God whether they’ve denied God or not. It’s during this interval that they get to choose Life or death. If they’ve denied God until their demise, then they’ve chosen death. Once they’re dead, they’re dead. They’re raised only to see judgment. But for saints, we’ve been promised Life NOW and forevermore. I’m not sure I can believe that after saints die, they’re dead at all. You can’t possess eternal life and be dead at the same time.

[Robert Callow]

Quote by Robert Callow
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (the word "die" here comes from the original word 'Muwth' meaning: to die, to wither, to decay, to be dead; to kill, to slay, to bring to death, to have one executed) i.e. a cessation of existence. First there was the instant death of his holy, pure and innocent Spirit of truth, followed later by his physical death.

His spirit did not literally die, he became spiritually dead in his sins (Eph 2:1-6).

I am sorry but the Spirit of truth became dead in Adam the moment Adam gave in to evil's temptation and valued his own desires to know evil above above his Fathers warning. The moment this happened, Adam's nature became that of a rebel deceiver and a liar because he had put himself first above his Father's Word; and when that happened, the Spirit of truth that was alive in Adam, ceased to be alive in Adam any more. This Spirit had literally been killed off by Satan the moment Adam gave in to Satan's temptation to know evil. In other words, the Spirit of truth had literally died in man. This left Adam with a self-first, self-righteous spirit controlling him, this in turn led to his physical death centuries later.


If you will not accept that the Spirit of truth did literally die in man when He ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then how do you expect anyone in their right mind to trust you to interpret God's Word correctly?

You have no right to tell me that I don't know and rightly value the Spirit of truth. That is a very serious allegation to make towards someone and it is completely uncalled for and is judgmental. You are not my Judge.

If you really do believe you do know and rightly value the Spirit of truth then please tell me what you think of these posts, numbers 37, 39, 40 and 41 found at this hyperlink, http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/236951-Is-Christianity-more-logical-than-atheism/page3?p=2839572#post2839572 . Here I have explained what has been revealed to me. The first post sets out to explain our fallen nature and the only way to overcome it. The other posts deal mainly with understanding the meaning of the Spirit of truth a little more. If you will always value and worship this God above all others then I trust we will overcome all our differences whatever they may be. But if you refuse then I am truly sorry for you.