Posting Freak
Similar, but not exactly. Those who die in a fire have only died the first death. They will be resurrected. Those wicked who die the second death are dead. Dead for all eternity with no chance of ever living again. They are gone, forever.Originally Posted by LookingUp
Posting Freak
It is as good as done. Just off the top of my head, here is an example...
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Was Abimelech really a dead man? No, but he would have been had those events continued to the conclusion without repentance on his part.
Jesus didn't say that.
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:32)
I believe the body sleeps while the souls of good people go to paradise.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23)
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)
Posting Freak
You are free to believe what you want about the soul.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Future tense. Next verse tells when...
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When are we present with the Lord? At the resurrection. When is the resurrection? At His coming.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
This scripture does not give the timing. Paul's next conscious thought is at the resurrection when Christ returns. Paul is the one Christ used to give much information about the resurrection, such as when it occurs...
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Paul calls it sleep. So did Jesus...
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
When? At the last trump at Christ's return.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is what Daniel spoke of...
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
We have seen when that is. We have seen that the state of the dead is that they know not anything (Eccl 9:5). So, you may believe whatever you want. If you desire, you may believe the same thing that was told to Eve...
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Posting Freak
I'll have to give this one some thought.
Thank you for your explanations—you offer some great arguments from Scripture. I’m just not sure about Phil. 1:23. I get your argument about not being conscious and then waking up like no time has passed, but Paul basically equates departing and being with Christ and how that is so much better.
So Paul in your opinion has been asleep for the past 1,960 or so years and he still isn't with Jesus yet? Is this what you believe?
Posting Freak
Add this into you thoughts on the matter...
Paul understood about death being equated to sleep...
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Notice the future tense above.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Whether we are alive, or dead, we shall live together with Him. The question is when? At the resurrection...
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Posting Freak
It is absolutley true. He is sleeping just like the other saints, awaiting the resurrection
Regular Contributor
***
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:43
What do you believe this means?
Baruch hata Adonai, elo-henu malech ha-olam, ha'tov, va-ha'me-tev.
How do you know it's true? I believe he's with Jesus in heaven.
While we're on the subject. In your opinion where is Elijah? Where did the chariot of fire take him?
Posting Freak
While you are thinking, think on this also. Paul begin by saying, "According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope," V20. For better understanding on the earnest expectation (used twice in the word) and hope of Paul, compare to Romans 8:14-25.
Also: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Posting Freak
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Here we have two men spoken of David and Jesus. Jesus was from the loins of David yet was greater than David being the only begotten (the seed of promise) of the Father God.
It was this seed Jesus who had been raised from the dead 50 days prior to this being spoken by Peter, and He, Jesus was then sitting on the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
From the above scriptures on that very day, where was the soul of David and where was the body of David?
His soul was still in Hades and his body was in the sepulchre where he lay with his fathers, and saw corruption according to Acts 13:36.
If that is where David was 50 Days after the resurrection, where is David today.
Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
What promise is this?
Posting Freak
This one is a case of a comma added in the wrong place. You do know that there was no punctuation in the original and that it was added, don't you?
Let's look at Luke 23:43...
Christ was hanging on the cross on Passover, 31AD when He said this. So where did the malefactor go when he died that day? Straight to heaven? If he did, he beat Christ there by more than three days and three nights...
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
This was on Sunday morning. He had been dead in the tomb for three days and three nights, was resurrected on Sabbath afternoon at/around sunset and then ascended to the Father the next morning as per the Wave Sheaf offering to be the sacrifice for all mankind's sins. So if the malefactor went to heaven on Wednesday afternnoon, when he died, he was in the presence of the Father over three days and nights before Christ got there. This violates several other scriptures...
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
He even beat David, a man after God's own heart, there...
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
"is not" is present tense. At this time, David had not ascended to heaven.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
There is much in these two verses. Eventually, ALL will be resurrected...
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"But every man in his own order" as REv 20 shows there is more than one resurrection. There is a resurrection to life at Christ's coming.
So what does Luke 23:43 really say,
"Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
What a difference a comma makes.
From an article on the KJV...
Punctuation
The 1611 King James Bible was published by the firm of Robert Barker of London. Barker’s family had been in the printing business for decades, and he had the distinction of being “Printer to the Kings most Excellent Maiestie,” as is noted on the Bible’s title page. With that designation, his company held the new Bible’s franchise (sometimes with partners) into the 1630s, when the concession went to other printers, most often university presses. The origin of the punctuation in the 1611 KJV is not well understood. In large part, it was determined by the translators, based on the Hebrew and Greek texts, earlier English versions, and the current usage of the time. But it likely also contains influence from editors in Barker’s shop. The punctuation in the 1611 edition was not done very consistently. Readers today are often surprised to learn that the punctuation in our current KJV differs in thousands of places from that of the 1611 first edition. - Kent P. Jackson, Frank F. Judd Jr., and David R. Seely
Posting Freak
You are certainly entitled to your belief. It does however disagree with scripture...
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
There are more, but one should be enough. Anyhoo, our promise is not to go to heaven. Our promise is to remain on the earth, that is where Christ is coming to...
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Jesus Christ does not make a "near miss" as the rapture folks would have you believe. He comes back just as He said He would in John 14 and the angels said...
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I will address Elijah in another post.
Sure it agrees with scripture. I wouldn't say it if it didn't.
Are you a Jehovah's witness by any chance?John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
There are more, but one should be enough. Anyhoo, our promise is not to go to heaven. Our promise is to remain on the earth, that is where Christ is coming to...
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Jesus Christ does not make a "near miss" as the rapture folks would have you believe. He comes back just as He said He would in John 14 and the angels said...
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I will address Elijah in another post.
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