ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[Vanderhoven7]

Here is what I found out about Sheol (the only Hebrew word for hell used) when I examined every Sheol passage in the Old Testament?


Sheol is located downward in the dust of the earth. (Job 17:13-16)

Both the good and the bad go to Sheol.

Jacob and his sons go to Sheol. (Gen.42:38)

David planned to rest in Sheol. (Ps.16:9-10)

David desired his enemies also go down to Sheol, not in peace, but in blood. (I Kings 2:6,9)

By going to Sheol, Job misses God's wrath. Job actually asks to be

hidden in Sheol to escape God's anger. (Job 14:13)



The terms death, the grave, and destruction are so closely bound as to be often interchangeable in the text (Pr.15:11, 24; 27:20).



Not too much goes on in Sheol.

There is no wisdom or knowledge there and no activity or work for

those who go down to silence. (Eccl.9:10 Ps.6:5 Ps. 31:17)

No person praises God from Sheol (Ps.6:5; 88:10-12)



Figurative language is often associated with Sheol.

Beds are made In Sheol. Maggots are spread beneath the dead and worms cover them like a blanket. (Is.14:11)

Sheol is even personified.

It is pictured as snatching sinners and robbing people of their remaining years. (Job 24:19);

Sheol has an appetite. It opens its mouth without limit.

It is never satisfied. (Pr.27:20) Sheol is naked before God.

Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits. i.e. ruling

MOST IMPORTANT: God will redeem souls from Sheol's power. (Ps.49:15)

Sheol will not have the last word. Sheol is going to be plagued and death is going to be destroyed! (Hos.13:14 KJV) Sheol is not eternal therefore, but temporary. God is with the righteous in Sheol and His promise is not to abandon them there forever. (Ps.16:10; 139:8)


I found only one or two passages that might suggest torment in Sheol:

PSALMS 116:3 The cords of death entangled me, the anguish of
the grave (Sheol) came upon me; I was overcome
by trouble and sorrow.

COMMENT: The writer's intention in this verse is not to convey that Sheol is a place of conscious punishment. What is being conveyed, is an attitude towards death. The thought of death, especially premature death, "fills the Israelite with great horror". The Psalmist depicts that fear in common "poetic figures of mortal danger". He uses similar poetic language, for example, in Psalm 18: 4-6 which reads:

The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction
overwhelmed me. The cords of the grave coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me. In my distress, I called
to the Lord; I cried to my God for help .... (Ps.18: 4-6)


Death is vividly personified in both of these passages and pictured as reaching out from the grave to draw the Psalmist in. The fear and anguish associated with the threat of an imminent and violent death, causes him to call to the Lord for deliverance, and death's stranglehold on him is broken.


Some questions to consider:

- From the Traditionalist viewpoint, what are (or were) the unrighteous doing or experiencing in Sheol?

- What might the righteous be doing or experiencing in Sheol? (e.g. enjoyment, praise, rest?)

- If Sheol is a place of enjoyable activity and reward, why must the souls of the righteous be redeemed from it?

And why would God be bent on destroying this underground paradise? (Hos.13:14)


According to Vine's OT. Dictionary, "Sheol was not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimate resting place of all mankind". The idea that Sheol was a place of conscious punishment first developed in the intertestamental period with the influence of Greek culture and philosophy upon Judaism. The apparent enigma of the righteous also being in Sheol was resolved in some but not all rabbinical circles, by subdividing or compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. The wicked were hopelessly consigned to an area of Sheol where punishments were applied commensurate with one's performance in life, while the righteous were segregated and awaiting redemption in a part of Sheol having paradisiacal dimensions. As The New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology states, "With the infiltration of the Greek doctrine of immortality of the soul, paradise becomes the dwelling place of the righteous during the intermediate state."

[Vanderhoven7]

Since there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence describing the torment of the unrighteous in Sheol/hell passages, I decided to check out eschatology passages that did not necessarily contain the word Sheol to see if eternal torment might be clearly delineated or even possibly suggested. And actually I found only one verse:

Dan.12:2, Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT

- Does "shame" denote or imply "perpetual/endless pain"?
- Does "everlasting contempt" denote or imply "eternal torment"?

- Could it be that the reaction of contempt will be that
of the righteous; that the righteous will find the
wicked eternally loathsome and deserving of contempt?

The same Hebrew word translated "contempt" also appears in Isaiah 66:24 as "loathsome" and describes the disgust of the righteous survivors as they view the unburied corpses of the wicked slain. Will anything alter this righteous sentiment toward the wicked throughout eternity?


It certainly becomes clear from examination of many Old Testament eschatological passages, that the wicked will not stand in the final judgment; they will perish; they will be destroyed, consumed, devoured, snuffed out, and eternally loathsome to the righteous. But the idea that the wicked are assigned to eternal consciousness in perpetual agony is not clear from any of the texts I considered. My conclusion is that
eternal torment does not appear to be the clear teaching of the Old Testament, whether one looks for it inside or outside of "hell".

Vander

[nzyr]

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:41-48)

[John 8:32]

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:41-48)

Immortal worms? What will they think of next?

[divaD]

Immortal worms? What will they think of next?

This of course is a good point.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Let's look at these 2 parts...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. Clearly the latter is not meaning them nor a part of them, in regards to the fire. So the same has to be concluded about the former as well...the worms are not them nor a part of them, they would be an external source, just like the fire would be, in relation to them. What you then end up with, exactly like you said, is with immortal worms.

[John 8:32]

This of course is a good point.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Let's look at these 2 parts...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. Clearly the latter is not meaning them nor a part of them, in regards to the fire. So the same has to be concluded about the former as well...the worms are not them nor a part of them, they would be an external source, just like the fire would be, in relation to them. What you then end up with, exactly like you said, is with immortal worms.

This is referring to the Valley of Hinnom and the corpses of malefactors that were dumped there. Like a smoldering garbage dump with maggots.

[Vanderhoven7]

Let's look at these 2 parts...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. Clearly the latter is not meaning them nor a part of them, in regards to the fire. So the same has to be concluded about the former as well...the worms are not them nor a part of them, they would be an external source, just like the fire would be, in relation to them. What you then end up with, exactly like you said, is with immortal worms.

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Coby writes: Isaiah 66:24 tells us that the fire of the damned shall not be quenched...

However, Isaiah also tells us the same thing of the fire of Edom:

"It shall not be quenched night or day and its smoke shall ascend forever and no one shall pass through it forever and ever" (Isaiah 34:9).

Scholars will quickly admit that Isaiah was not saying that Edom would burn forever, and that he only means that the punishment cannot be stopped until it is over. Why then, are they so quick to say that Isaiah means something entirely different when referring to final punishment? Especially when Isaiah 66:24 refers to the bodies of the damned as "corpses?" "

Vander

[Vanderhoven7]

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:41-48)

Looking at this Markian passage for a moment, you will note a clear but not necessarily critical distinction between the KJV and any modern translation. But what is clear is that Gehenna Fire is unquenchable and the worms in Gehenna don't die.

Questions that need answering:
In what way did literal Gehenna fit this description? How could this apply to future judgment?
Do the undying worms and the unquenchable fire somehow denote physical and mental torments
or is some other meaning intended?


- Fire, Everlasting Fire, Gehenna Fire,
Unquenchable Fire and Undying Worms

- What could these figurative words and phrases mean?

GEHENNA: Does the term Gehenna denote or suggest eternal torment?
Gehenna was a 600 ft deep gorge, called the valley of (GE)Hinnom, that in Jesus day, was being used as a garbage dump. It was situated just outside Jerusalem. Garbage, carcasses of animals and even the dead bodies of criminals were cast into Gehenna, without burial, to be utterly destroyed by the unquenchable fires that burned night and day and the seemingly endless supply of scavenging worms and other natural elements. Nothing was thrown into Gehenna alive or in a conscious state, and nothing was tormented in the literal Gehenna. Jesus employed Gehenna figuratively to depict the unlimited destruction associated with the "second death".

Gehenna, had a bad history. God judged Israel for her sins (Jer.7:31-33; 19:2-13) and prophesied to fill this valley full of bodies. Josephus informs us that countless bodies were heaped there following the Roman siege in 69/70 AD. By Jesus' day, the term "Gehenna" was commonplace imagery in Jewish literature. Gehenna evoked a sense of total dishonor and disgust; it suggested judgment, death, decay and destruction, not eternal torment.

FIRE:
Does fire in scripture tend to denote torment?
Fire is commonly used as a symbol for destruction - rather than conscious
torment. God's fiery judgments burn till all is consumed (See Mal.4:1 and
Ez.28:18-19). Fire is said to consume sinners and cities.

ETERNAL FIRE:
Does eternal fire denote or necessitate ongoing conscious suffering?
The destruction of Sodom was notably quick and merciful, but its desolation perpetual. Is.13:19-22 Jer.50:40 This sudden destruction, resulted in total desolation that would never be reversed. This is an example of the eternal fire associated with God's final fiery judgment. (Jude 7, 2 Pe.3:10)


UNQUENCHABLE FIRE:
Does unquenchable fire denote conscious perpetual pain?
God's prediction of Jerusalem's destruction with unquenchable fire (Jer.17:27) was fulfilled when enemy armies burned Jerusalem in 586 BC. Did the unquenchable fire of Jerusalem's judgment ever go out? Unquenchable fire symbolizes destruction which nothing will prevent.

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE AND UNDYING WORMS:
Do Fire and worms, the twin elements of destruction in Gehenna, denote eternal torment? This same imagery is used in Is.66:24 to describe the righteous looking over the "dead corpses" (pegerim). The righteous viewed their destruction, not their misery or torment. They were not looking at eternal worms or fires that never went out through eternity.

It is equally important to note that Jesus' use of Gehenna as a figure of eternal destruction did not demand or even imply immortal worms or flames that would never go out throughout history, much less human suffering and torment. The unquenchable fire and the undying worm in literal Gehenna, quite apparently, refers to the completion of the work of destruction. In literal Gehenna, the worms did not die off or the fires abate until the corpses were destroyed completely. The purpose of Gehenna was destruction, not torment.

The literal place of Gehenna was not a place of torment; rather than conveying torment, literal0 Gehenna conveyed death and decay. It evoked feelings of disgust, revulsion and contempt or loathing from onlookers, not torment and pain from indwellers.

[Saved7]

Hi Everyone,

THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL ADVANCES THE FOLLOWING:


PREMISE 1. DURING THE INTERMEDIATE STATE the souls of the
unrighteous deceased exist in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Sheol/Hades).

PREMISE 2. AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT the souls of unregenerate
human beings will be sustained in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Gehenna/lake of fire) for all eternity.



I'D LIKE TO CHALLENGE THOSE WHO BELIEVE SUCH TO OFFER SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL BY ANSWERING THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:


What OT evidence might have convinced Christ's contemporaries
(i.e. the Pharisees) of the Traditional view of hell? (From Gen. - Mal.)

OT evidence that supports Premise 1.
OT evidence that supports Premise 2.

We can get to the New Testament , once we exhaust the Old Testament (scriptural evidence only please) that would have convinced the Pharisees of Jesus day who supported both premises.

So what is it exactly that you are challenging here? The idea of there being a hell? Or the idea of hell being eternal? Just want to get some clarification here, that's all.

[John 8:32]

This of course is a good point.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Let's look at these 2 parts...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. Clearly the latter is not meaning them nor a part of them, in regards to the fire. So the same has to be concluded about the former as well...the worms are not them nor a part of them, they would be an external source, just like the fire would be, in relation to them. What you then end up with, exactly like you said, is with immortal worms.

Look at another aspect of this, if these people who are condemned to an ever burning hell are there, what do we do with the carcasses we are supposed to be able to see that are ate up with worms? And how do you see their carcases in hell? Dig 'em up, I've got a sawbuck that says their carcases are still in the pine box.

[Vanderhoven7]

Saved7

The challenge is to find OT verses that support the traditional view of hell or eternal torment as the punishment for human sin. I can't find it there...but, of course, we haven't really hit the NT yet. But again, I'm looking for more than imagery involving eternal worms. I'm looking for clear teaching such as:

And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell.
Day and night for all eternity, the wicked men will
call out for mercy, but there will be none to save.
Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain
Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep
and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their
loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing
to comfort them. Jehosaphat 3:16

Now none of us could argue that!

Vander

[John 8:32]

Saved7

The challenge is to find OT verses that support the traditional view of hell or eternal torment as the punishment for human sin. I can't find it there...but, of course, we haven't really hit the NT yet. But again, I'm looking for more than imagery involving eternal worms. I'm looking for clear teaching such as:

And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell.
Day and night for all eternity, the wicked men will
call out for mercy, but there will be none to save.
Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain
Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep
and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their
loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing
to comfort them. Jehosaphat 3:16

Now none of us could argue that!

Vander

Well, do not hold your breath, the BIBLE does not teach going to heaven, neither does it teach an ever burning hell. If you are looking for teaching on an ever burning hell, you must go to the source...

The Divine Comedy - Dante Alighieri

[Vanderhoven7]

Well, do not hold your breath, the BIBLE does not teach going to heaven, neither does it teach an ever burning hell. If you are looking for teaching on an ever burning hell, you must go to the source...The Divine Comedy - Dante Alighieri

Well seeing Jesus and hearing the words "Well done..." will be heaven enough for me.

[Saved7]

Saved7

The challenge is to find OT verses that support the traditional view of hell or eternal torment as the punishment for human sin. I can't find it there...but, of course, we haven't really hit the NT yet. But again, I'm looking for more than imagery involving eternal worms. I'm looking for clear teaching such as:

And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell.
Day and night for all eternity, the wicked men will
call out for mercy, but there will be none to save.
Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain
Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep
and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their
loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing
to comfort them. Jehosaphat 3:16

Now none of us could argue that!

Vander

Ok, I see.

Is this what you are looking for?

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

I realize this is mainly about resurrection, but it is also about judgement on the soul.

[John 8:32]

Ok, I see.

Is this what you are looking for?

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

I realize this is mainly about resurrection, but it is also about judgement on the soul.

Holding something in everlasting contempt in no way equates to that something lasting eternally. I had a car that has long since been made into recycled material, but I still hold it in contempt and will so as long as I am alive. Hmmm, I guess in my case that I will hold that car in everlasting contempt.

The wicked are destroyed...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Their body and soul are destroyed and the righteous...

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Will walk on their ashes.