ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[divaD]

Destroy does not mean annihilated here nor anywhere else in the NT.

Let's think thru this verse logically.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we see that some are able to kill the body, but not able to kill the soul also. We're told not to fear them. Then were told..rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Clearly this passage indicated, that not only is God able to destroy the body, just like the ones we're not to fear can as well, but that He can also do what they can't do, and that is to destroy the soul.

Speaking of destroy, let's see how that is used in another passage, in order to try and determine the sense in this passage.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This same Greek word is used here, in this part...for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. So what exactly should we conclude that Herod was seeking to do to the young child if found? Wouldn't it be safe to conclude he would kill Him? So wouldn't the sense for destroy in that passage mean to kill?

With that in mind, the same sense should apply to Matt 10:28. So IOW, it should be understood like such.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to KILL both soul and body in hell.

Even tho different Greek words were used in this passage for kill and destroy, we at least know what sense destroy is meaning. And on top of that, the latter shows that only God can destroy(kill) both body and soul, and that man can only kill the body. So now the question is, what does it mean to kill a body and a soul? How can a soul be killed, yet still be alive? It would be like asking, how can a body be physically killed by someone and then still be alive? The body would be dead. But if the soul is still alive after God has destroyed(killed) it in hell, then so should someone's body still be alive after someone has physically killed it in this age. We both know that that's illogical, in regards to the latter. So if it's illogical in regards to the latter, it must then be illogical in the former as well.

[John 8:32]

Even tho different Greek words were used in this passage for kill and destroy, we at least know what sense destroy is meaning. And on top of that, the latter shows that only God can destroy(kill) both body and soul, and that man can only kill the body. So now the question is, what does it mean to kill a body and a soul? How can a soul be killed, yet still be alive? It would be like asking, how can a body be physically killed by someone and then still be alive? The body would be dead. But if the soul is still alive after God has destroyed(killed) it in hell, then so should someone's body still be alive after someone has physically killed it in this age. We both know that that's illogical, in regards to the latter. So if it's illogical in regards to the latter, it must then be illogical in the former as well.

Sorta, kinda like Schrodinger's cat.

[The Beginner]

Luke 16 taken literally is not about an ever-burning hell. It's about a 6000 year old burning hell that no one, from Adam to Malachi knew about. God told Adam he'd turn to dust, but He didn't tell him or anyone else what the real sentence entailed. There are allegedly billions of people who have never heard the gospel burning in this underground worm-infested torture chamber begging for drops of water, as we speak. I wonder why God, who is love, just didn't decide that the wages of sin would be death...you know, cessation of life, instead of death where one goes on existing for ever.

In your opinion, what happened to the righteous saints before the cross and resurrection? Since Hades in Luke 16 doesn't count for the unbeliever then neither can Abraham's bosom count for the righteous Saint... So where did they go?

Now my real point is this. Luke 16:19-31 is literal stuff...fictitious, but literal, non-the-less. How do I know. Because the Pharisees and the people who trusted them, literally believed in this place. The Pharisees were hellfire preachers. Jesus preached hellfire right back at them...only they were the ones that ended up in their own fictitious version of the afterlife....and for no other reason than they had a great and prosperous life. You see, Jesus turned the Pharisees' own story(not the Bible's) around to bite them in front of the masses.

Are you trying to say that anyone who believe in a literal hell will eventual go there?

[/QUOTE]

In order to establish that the literary form of a work is satire, or more particularly, a parody, there must be clear evidence that:


a. A common or "well known story line is being imitated".


b. irony is employed; that the story’s outcome is changed such
that there is clear “incongruity between the actual result
of a sequence of events and the expected result”


c. the unexpected results "highlight human stupidity" or corruption.


d. "a comic end is served", the purpose of which is to cause listeners
"to detach sympathies from certain people (groups), to judge their
actions and to see the absurdity in their behavior.."

The Rich Man and Lazarus account satisfies these criteria and fits the mold of parody rather nicely.


EDIT: For anyone who is not sure what a parody is: think of the movie "Galaxy Quest"

This is all totally your opinion... Its your assumption that Jesus was just making a fictitious account of a place that didn't exist because he was trying to humor the Pharasees...

[Hawkins]

Hi Everyone,

THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL ADVANCES THE FOLLOWING:


PREMISE 1. DURING THE INTERMEDIATE STATE the souls of the
unrighteous deceased exist in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Sheol/Hades).

PREMISE 2. AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT the souls of unregenerate
human beings will be sustained in a condition of unbearable torment
in hell (Gehenna/lake of fire) for all eternity.



I'D LIKE TO CHALLENGE THOSE WHO BELIEVE SUCH TO OFFER SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL BY ANSWERING THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:


What OT evidence might have convinced Christ's contemporaries
(i.e. the Pharisees) of the Traditional view of hell? (From Gen. - Mal.)

OT evidence that supports Premise 1.
OT evidence that supports Premise 2.

We can get to the New Testament , once we exhaust the Old Testament (scriptural evidence only please) that would have convinced the Pharisees of Jesus day who supported both premises.

The whole Bible says that you need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, the Bible never said that "You don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, you are saved anyway". You are challeging what the whole NT is trying to say.

[Vanderhoven7]

The whole Bible says that you need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, the Bible never said that "You don't need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, you are saved anyway". You are challeging what the whole NT is trying to say.

Hi Hawkins,

The whole Bible is the Word of God. But the Pharisees had certain beliefs before any of the New Testament was written. I'm asking for the scriptures in the Old Testament that might have led them to hold these beliefs. Hope that helps.

Vander

[John 8:32]

[SIZE=4][FONT=book antiqua]

In your opinion, what happened to the righteous saints before the cross and resurrection? Since Hades in Luke 16 doesn't count for the unbeliever then neither can Abraham's bosom count for the righteous Saint... So where did they go?

I am not answering for V7, but here is what I see. Consider what we find in Hebrews...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They did not inherit the promises yet.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints will either rise from the dead in a resurrection or those who happen to be alive at Christ's return will be changed.

Are you trying to say that anyone who believe in a literal hell will eventual go there?

According to what we read, no one has gone anywhere yet. These things occur at the return of Christ and the resurrection.

[The Beginner]

Let's think thru this verse logically.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we see that some are able to kill the body, but not able to kill the soul also. We're told not to fear them. Then were told..rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Clearly this passage indicated, that not only is God able to destroy the body, just like the ones we're not to fear can as well, but that He can also do what they can't do, and that is to destroy the soul.

Speaking of destroy, let's see how that is used in another passage, in order to try and determine the sense in this passage.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This same Greek word is used here, in this part...for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. So what exactly should we conclude that Herod was seeking to do to the young child if found? Wouldn't it be safe to conclude he would kill Him? So wouldn't the sense for destroy in that passage mean to kill?

With that in mind, the same sense should apply to Matt 10:28. So IOW, it should be understood like such.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to KILL both soul and body in hell.

Even tho different Greek words were used in this passage for kill and destroy, we at least know what sense destroy is meaning. And on top of that, the latter shows that only God can destroy(kill) both body and soul, and that man can only kill the body. So now the question is, what does it mean to kill a body and a soul? How can a soul be killed, yet still be alive? It would be like asking, how can a body be physically killed by someone and then still be alive? The body would be dead. But if the soul is still alive after God has destroyed(killed) it in hell, then so should someone's body still be alive after someone has physically killed it in this age. We both know that that's illogical, in regards to the latter. So if it's illogical in regards to the latter, it must then be illogical in the former as well.

Logically speaking... when a person dies, their body does not become non existent. It is no longer useful of its intended purpose. Likewise the 2nd death is not a non existence of the soul. It is thrown out as Jesus said, "not useful for anything except to be burned".

Think about it... The Beast whom the bible says is going to perdition (Rev 17:8) (apoleian) (destruction), is also said to be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10)... So which is it? Is he destroyed and no more or is he tormented forever and ever?

[Hawkins]

The Pharisees' concept about Hades/Sheol is correct. That's Jesus has no problem telling them the concept of hellfire and the throwing of death and Hades/Sheol into the Lake of Fire.

Except for the Sadducees, the Jews in majority including the Pharisees have the hell concept and immortal soul concept. The book of Enoch actually shows an extreme of how these concepts go, though the book itself is not canonical. As for the Sadducees, they don't believe afterlife/soul/angels at all.

[The Beginner]

I am not answering for V7, but here is what I see. Consider what we find in Hebrews...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They did not inherit the promises yet.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints will either rise from the dead in a resurrection or those who happen to be alive at Christ's return will be changed.



According to what we read, no one has gone anywhere yet. These things occur at the return of Christ and the resurrection.

Huh?

So no one in history has gone anywhere once they died? No soul has ever departed from the body at death? Am I understanding you correctly?

How do you understand this verse?

[8] We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2Cr 5:8 NKJV

This verse states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is not talking about at the ressurectoin because they would not be absent from the body then?

And this one?

[9] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" - Rev 6:9-10 NKJV

Who are these souls? This is obviously before the 2nd coming because there is a period after this in which more maryters are going to die. I don't think you believe there will be martyrdom after the 2nd coming do you? Where do you believe these souls of the people that had been slain are?

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi Beginner,

<<In your opinion, what happened to the righteous saints before the cross and resurrection?>>

Well from the Old Testament, which the Pharisees had access to, everyone went to Sheol. And to summarize my findings from the OT:
Sheol, the hell of the OT is "the common fate of all mortals". Aside from the hope and promise of redemption for the righteous from Sheol's grip, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing the lot of the righteous from that of the unrighteous. Death then, becomes the universal enemy; it is not presented as a release to heavenly life and immortality. Rather, death is itself "the problem - for which resurrection is the answer". Further, conscious punishment, regardless of duration, is not explicitly taught in any of the OT Sheol passages. If some kind of sustained torment is being implicitly taught therein, this theme certainly remains undeveloped.

Are you trying to say that anyone who believe in a literal hell will eventual go there?

I'm not sure how you might think I was saying that. Final punishment is not a "salvation issue".

Its your assumption that Jesus was just making a fictitious account of a place that didn't exist because he was trying to humor the Pharasees...

Again, Jesus was not attempting to humor anyone. Satire is serious business. It is very effective in undermining authority; in this case, the authority of the Pharisees, who used the idea of future torment to justify their heartlessness.

[Hawkins]

in this case, the authority of the Pharisees, who used the idea of future torment to justify their heartlessness.

The Pharisees follow strictly what the Torah (both oral and written) says (they don't behave correctly though, they teach so at least). That's why they challenge Jesus about the Sabbath.

[The Beginner]

Hi Beginner,

Well from the Old Testament, which the Pharisees had access to, everyone went to Sheol. And to summarize my findings from the OT:
Sheol, the hell of the OT is "the common fate of all mortals". Aside from the hope and promise of redemption for the righteous from Sheol's grip, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing the lot of the righteous from that of the unrighteous. Death then, becomes the universal enemy; it is not presented as a release to heavenly life and immortality. Rather, death is itself "the problem - for which resurrection is the answer". Further, conscious punishment, regardless of duration, is not explicitly taught in any of the OT Sheol passages. If some kind of sustained torment is being implicitly taught therein, this theme certainly remains undeveloped.

So from what i understand your are saying... you believe all men (righteous and unrighteous) die and have been and are currently experiencing the same reality of unconsciousness in the ground. The righteous soul does not go to be with the Lord until the resurrection... And the unrighteous soul does not depart from the body to a place of torment until the 2nd death (to be annihilated)...

Am I understanding you correctly

If righteous souls do not depart to be the Lord before the 2nd coming, then how do you interpret this two passages?

[8] We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2Cr 5:8 NKJV

[9] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" - Rev 6:9-10 NKJV

[John 8:32]

Huh?

So no one in history has gone anywhere once they died? No soul has ever departed from the body at death? Am I understanding you correctly?

No, you are not. The spirit of man or soul does depart. Is it conscious without a body? No.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

How do you understand this verse?

[8] We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2Cr 5:8 NKJV

This verse states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is not talking about at the ressurectoin because they would not be absent from the body then?

How do you understand these verses in conjunction with 2 Cor 5:8...

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Death is likened to sleep here. Christ is called the firstfruits, so no one could have risen from that sleep (death) prior to Him, else He is not the FIRSTfruits.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Notice we are talking about a resurrection from the dead, not a changing of locations from some place to another.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those who die, are made alive again as snown in verse 22, but not until Christ's coming.

How then do we reconcile this with 2 Cor 5:8? Those who are absent from the body? There has to be a time gap between the death of a person and their conscious resurrection to immortality at the return of Christ. This is not precluded by 2 Cor 5:8, but rather is in harmony with the resurrection chapter, 1 Cor 15.

And this one?

[9] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" - Rev 6:9-10 NKJV

Who are these souls? This is obviously before the 2nd coming because there is a period after this in which more maryters are going to die. I don't think you believe there will be martyrdom after the 2nd coming do you? Where do you believe these souls of the people that had been slain are?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are resting as vs 11 says. Hmmm, do you suppose this could be a metaphor? Kinda like...

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Or is his blood crying out? Of course his blood did not speak literally, it did so metaphorically. Same as the saints, else we have a contradiction between this verse and 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 ths 4:16 or...

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha understood this and believed that Lazarus would rise in the resurrection of the dead in the last day.

[Vanderhoven7]

9] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" - Rev 6:9-10 NKJV

Hi Beginner

If you think about this verse you will realize that it argues against your case. After the 5th seal is opened the martyrs are shouting for revenge against their killers. According to your theology, aren't their killers burning in torment in hell right now while they wait for the final judgment? Will the lake of fire be hotter and more painful than what they are already experiencing? Do you think even higher heights of pain is what the souls under the alter are after?

The JFB COMMENTARY on Rev 6:9 -
The three last seals relate to the invisible, as the first four to the visible world; the fifth, to the martyrs who have died as believers; the sixth, to those who have died, or who shall be found at Christ’s coming, unbelievers, namely, “the kings ... great men ... bondman ... freeman”; the seventh, to the silence in heaven. The scene changes from earth to heaven; so that interpretations which make these three last consecutive to the first four seals, are very doubtful.
I saw — in spirit. For souls are not naturally visible.
under the altar — As the blood of sacrificial victims slain on the altar was poured at the bottom of the altar, so the souls of those sacrificed for Christ’s testimony are symbolically represented as under the altar, in heaven; for the life or animal soul is in the blood, and blood is often represented as crying for vengeance (Gen_4:10). The altar in heaven, antitypical to the altar of sacrifice, is Christ crucified. As it is the altar that sanctifies the gift, so it is Christ alone who makes our obedience, and even our sacrifice of life for the truth, acceptable to God. The sacrificial altar was not in the sanctuary, but outside; so Christ’s literal sacrifice and the figurative sacrifice of the martyrs took place, not in the heavenly sanctuary, but outside, here on earth. The only altar in heaven is that antitypical to the temple altar of incense. The blood of the martyrs cries from the earth under Christ’s cross, whereon they may be considered virtually to have been sacrificed; their souls cry from under the altar of incense, which is Christ in heaven, by whom alone the incense of praise is accepted before God. They are under Christ, in His immediate presence, shut up unto Him in joyful eager expectancy until He shall come to raise the sleeping dead. Compare the language of 2 Maccabees 7:36 as indicating Jewish opinion on the subject. Our brethren who have now suffered a short pain are dead under (Greek) God’s covenant of everlasting life."

This whole scene is both a vision as well as being symbolic. Why are heavenly souls under an alter? Aren't they free to move about? Why move from the wonders of Abraham's Bosom to an alter crying out for revenge? Why are they then told to go back to rest until the fullness of martyrs becomes complete?

[divaD]

Logically speaking... when a person dies, their body does not become non existent.

But that's not the point. Their body is dead, that's the pont. That means that that body has no awareness of it's suroundings at all. We would then have to apply that same concept to a soul that can be killed by God in hell. But that doesn't mean in the meantime that the soul of a person doesn't go somewhere while awaiting final judgment. But Matt:10:28 would have to mean after the 2nd coming, and not before. In the meantime, souls are either in a blissful place, or they're in an unblissfull place. As far as the latter, it would be like being detained in lockup without bail, while awaiting trial.

Think about it... The Beast whom the bible says is going to perdition (Rev 17:8) (apoleian) (destruction), is also said to be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10)... So which is it? Is he destroyed and no more or is he tormented forever and ever?

But that's not the same Greek word used in Matt 2:13, and Matt 10:28, which is in regards to men. But that doesn't really matter tho, as I will try and show. My conclusions are that the beast inhabits men, thus making it something spirit, the same way satan would be spirit. And I also conclude that the fate of spirit creatures are different than those of humans, which I will try and show with the following.

So let's look at another passage or two that uses the same Greek word 'apollumi', as does Matt 2:13 and Matt 10;28.

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

These are spirit creatures that are asking this. Why would spirit creatures be wondering if Jesus has come to destroy them?

Let's look at another angle, in regards to spirit creatures.

Matthew 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Notice what this passage says...art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Compared to...art thou come to destroy us?

The point is this, the sense here for destroy seems to mean to torment, which then agrees with the spirit beings fates in the LOF as per Rev 20:10. But in my other post, when it came to the fates of humans, in regards to destroy, the sense is to be killed. And this is what I've been saying all along. The fates of spirit beings and humans are different. spirit beings are cast into the LOF and are tormented for ever and ever. Humans are cast into the LOF to be destroyed, as if they had never been. Obviously God's mercy upon men is radically different from His mercy on spirit creatures, in which there is no mercy for them.