ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi Saved7

<<2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.>>

Take a look at post 17

[nzyr]

Since there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence describing the torment of the unrighteous in Sheol/hell passages...

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

[nzyr]

Holding something in everlasting contempt in no way equates to that something lasting eternally. I had a car that has long since been made into recycled material, but I still hold it in contempt and will so as long as I am alive. Hmmm, I guess in my case that I will hold that car in everlasting contempt.

The wicked are destroyed...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Their body and soul are destroyed and the righteous...

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Will walk on their ashes.

Don't you believe what was revealed to John in Revelation?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

[John 8:32]

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

A parable. What is the purpose of parables? Parables are not quaint stories to illustrate Jesus' teaching to simple farm folk. Their purpose is to hide the meaning from the multitudes including the Pharisees to whom this parable was addressed...

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat13:34 All these things spake Jesus untothe multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The lesson it teaches is...

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Rich Man = Judah
Lazarus = Eliezer (Gentile)

The parable is based on mythology of the day. I have shown the explanation of this parable on at least two occaisions.

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi John,

I don't believe Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable, at least not in the usual sense of the word. Certainly the account is allegorical... from my point of view - the rich man = the Pharisees; Lazarus (Eleazar) = the poor and downtrodden in Israel. Eleazar means "God is your help" and that is what the rich man always patronizingly said to the poor and downtrodden as they refused to even lift a finger to help.

There are a number of reasons that suggest this account may not be a parable. Firstly, Jesus’ parables are usually identified for us by the gospel writers themselves; this one is not. Secondly, gospel parables tend to center on one clear concept or point out one clear truth; this one does not. Thirdly, the parables of Jesus all involve everyday common events and possible human experiences; this one does not. Lastly, there are few other recorded parables where one finds personal names weaved into the story. The Rich Man and Lazarus then does not readily fit the mold of parable.

The literary form here, at least in my opinion, is satire...and actually a specific kind of satire. I think the Lazarus account is a parody, a parody of Pharisaic doctrine (teacher-action) similar to the previous account where the Pharisees were depicted as the unjust steward who the Lord rewards for his brilliant self-serving and covetous dealings. Notice the Pharisees reaction to that one. Jesus closes off that parody with accusation that the Pharisees justified themselves before men. How could they do that while they religiously would not lift a finger to help the poor. Jesus' uses/twists the very story they told repeatedly to justify their refusal to help the poor... to expose the absurdity of their self-justification and further undermine their authority in the eyes of the common people present in the audience.

[The Beginner]

I would like to look at a few passages in the Old Testament for the Traditional View... This is not comprehensive but I think at least establishes some of the ideas of where it has came from...

I will seek to keep the focus on the Old Testament alone. I may briefly mention New Testament passages but for the purpose of clarifying a point or to give a question...

1. The primary issue is over an eternal attribute of God. We all agree that God is Love and will be so forever. We believe that God is Wise and will be so forever. The scriptures also depict God as Full of Wrath towards his enemies... Malachi 1:4 states that of the wicked among the Edomites will be a people that bear His indignation forever... So the question I have is this... At what point does God no longer carry the attribute of jealousy? At what point is he no longer releasing vengeance on sin and his enemies?

2. Is there a reservation of the wicked dead to await a supplemental judgement?

[23] One dies in his full strength, Being wholly at ease and secure; [24] His pails are full of milk, And the marrow of his bones is moist. [25] Another man dies in the bitterness of his soul, Never having eaten with pleasure. [26] They lie down alike in the dust, And worms cover them. [27] "Look, I know your thoughts, And the schemes [with which] you would wrong me. [28] For you say, 'Where [is] the house of the prince? And where [is] the tent, The dwelling place of the wicked?' [29] Have you not asked those who travel the road? And do you not know their signs? [30] For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath. - Job 21:23-30 NKJV

Job's context is in regard to the "one who dies". So the wicked that are reserved for the day of doom needs to be kept in this view. Job states that the wicked are reserved for the day of doom and the day of wrath. We know that the day of judgment is at the end of the age. So if they are reserved, they must be kept until then. The question is "how are they kept until then?" in peace and rest? Or in torment? IMO, the overwhelming majority of verses in the bible that describe the wicked and associate it with the Pit are given in a negative light, not rest.

Lets look at this OT verse

[21] It shall come to pass in that day [That] the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, And on the earth the kings of the earth. [22] They will be gathered together, [As] prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished. - Isa 24:21-22 NKJV

Isaiah prophesied that there would be a day in which wicked people of the earth and demonic realm would be gathered by the Lord like prisoners are gather into a pit. Then after many days that will be punished. Revelation 20 gives this same idea in which Satan and his hordes are gathered into the prison, the wicked are gathered to Hades. After the Millennium, they will be brought out to experience the 2nd death. THe idea of being gathered like a prisoner (22a) into a pit to be punished (21) before the final punishment (22b) tells us that it involves torment or at least discomfort.

3. [9] "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet [you] at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. [10] They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? [11] Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, [And] the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.' - Isa 14:9-11 NKJV

Unless one seeks to make this passage purely symbolic, the idea of conciseness after death for the wicked is established. THe prophecy about the fall of the King of Babylon, sarcastically portrays the dead excited about his coming to hell. The wicked dead are stirred. They are able to speak to one another.

4. [22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass [That] from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. [24] "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." - Isa 66:22-24 NKJV

Regardless of what one argues that the worm and the fire not being quenched means. It still must not be divorces from the timing indicator of the the "New Heavens and New Earth". According to a annihilate view, the wicked should have been long destroyed and "no more" by this time. Yet "they" will be able to "go forth and look upon the corpse" these men who transgressed. At that time, there is the presence of "unquenchable fire" on the wicked.

5. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. - Dan 12:2 NKJV

The fact that there is a resurrection of the wicked tells us that there is a reservation of the wicked til the resurrection... But what are they resurrected too. The godly are resurrected to everlasting life. Nearly all of us believe that means eternal life, in that they will live blessed endlessly. And this eternal life is an experiential reality for the believer.
Therefore, shame and everlasting content should be seen hermeneutically the same. If one is an experiential reality, then the other should be viewed the same hermenutically. If everlasting shame and contempt is not to be understood to be lasting forever then neither can everlasting life be understood as lasting forever. In other words, if "everlasting" does not mean "lasting forever" then we have serious grammar problems. In order to experience "shame everlasting" demands that the recipient be conscious of shame forever. Shame is an emotion that can only be felt by the conscious recipient. A annihilated individual does not experience shame continually (everlasting).

6. [14] The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" [15] He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil: - Isa 33:14-15 NKJV

The context is towards the "sinners" and "hypocrites". And the question is asked who can dwell with devouring fire or everlasting burnings? The answer comes that the righteous can stand and not be harmed. Thus the opposite is also true, the sinners and hypocrites cannot stand or survive the judgments. What are the judgments? According to this verse,... Everlasting Burnings

7. [21] The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: 'They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' [22] "Assyria [is] there, and all her company, With their graves all around her, All of them slain, fallen by the sword. [23] Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit, And her company is all around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who caused terror in the land of the living. [24] "There [is] Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit. [25] They have set her bed in the midst of the slain, With all her multitude, With her graves all around it, All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; Though their terror was caused In the land of the living, Yet they bear their shame With those who go down to the Pit; It was put in the midst of the slain. [26] "There [are] Meshech and Tubal and all their multitudes, With all their graves around it, All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, Though they caused their terror in the land of the living. [27] They do not lie with the mighty [Who are] fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. [28] Yes, you shall be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, And lie with [those] slain by the sword. [29] "There [is] Edom, Her kings and all her princes, Who despite their might Are laid beside [those] slain by the sword; They shall lie with the uncircumcised, And with those who go down to the Pit. [30] There [are] the princes of the north, All of them, and all the Sidonians, Who have gone down with the slain In shame at the terror which they caused by their might; They lie uncircumcised with [those] slain by the sword, And bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit. [31] "Pharaoh will see them And be comforted over all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, Slain by the sword," Says the Lord GOD. [32] "For I have caused My terror in the land of the living; And he shall be placed in the midst of the uncircumcised With [those] slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude," Says the Lord GOD. - Eze 32:21-32 NKJV

The prophecy against Pharaoh the king of Egypt. The language of the passage indicates a state of consciousness of both Pharaoh and the multitudes that have descended to the Pit. Verse 30-31 indicates that Pharaoh would both see the multitudes and experience shame with them.

8. [13] If I wait [for] the grave [as] my house, If I make my bed in the darkness, [14] If I say to corruption, 'You [are] my father,' And to the worm, 'You [are] my mother and my sister,' [15] Where then [is] my hope? As for my hope, who can see it? [16] [Will] they go down to the gates of Sheol? Shall [we have] rest together in the dust?" - Job 17:13-16 NKJV

Job, in his agony and associating with the ones that go to the pit and obviously not talking about an abode of peace but rather the place where corruption dwells and there is no hope. He states that there is no rest by giving the rhetorical question "Shall we have rest together in the dust?" The obvious answer being "no". The question I have for the annihilist is what does it mean that there shall be no rest for the wicked. To use a New Testament passage "...and they have no rest day or night (Rev 14:11). At what point does God grant "rest" for the wicked in the post mortum state?

Im sure that there will be lots who disagree with the above post. I do think the NT makes the points much clearer it does on many subjects in the Kingdom of God.

Blessings

[Vanderhoven7]

Good work Beginner. Way to take up the challenge. Can't deal with every quote at once however. Let's start with # 1

<<1. The primary issue is over an eternal attribute of God. We all agree that God is Love and will be so forever. We believe that God is Wise and will be so forever. The scriptures also depict God as Full of Wrath towards his enemies... Malachi 1:4 states that of the wicked among the Edomites will be a people that bear His indignation forever... So the question I have is this... At what point does God no longer carry the attribute of jealousy? At what point is he no longer releasing vengeance on sin and his enemies? >>



1. Malachi 1:4 states that of the wicked among the Edomites will be a people that bear His indignation forever... “ In context now:

Mal 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Gill writes:


Mal 1:4 - Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished,.... Or the Idumeans, as the Targum; the posterity of Esau, who acknowledge themselves greatly reduced by the desolations made in their country, cities, towns, and houses, being plundered of all their valuable things. Kimchi interprets it,
if the congregation of Edom should say, though we are become poor and low, and our land is laid waste:

but we will return; being now become rich, as the Targum adds; that is, as Jarchi explains it, with the spoils of Jerusalem:

and build the desolate places: as Israel did, as Kimchi observes, when they returned from their captivity; and so the Edomites hoped to do the same:

thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; they attempted to build again their cities and towns, but could not succeed, God was against them:

and they shall call them; or, "they shall be called" (u); this shall be the name they, shall go by among men, by way of proverb and reproach:

The border of wickedness; a wicked kingdom and nation, from one end to the other; this shall be said of them, as the reason of their utter and perpetual desolation:

and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever; not for seventy years only, as against the Jews, Zec_1:12, but forever; and these are now no more a people; they are utterly extinct; their name and nation are lost; there is not the least appearance of them; when the Jews, though they are scattered about in the world, yet they are still a people, and distinct from all others.

Nothing here about eternal torment Beginner. Edom simply would never return to her glory.

[The Beginner]

Good work Beginner. Way to take up the challenge.

Thank you

Can't deal with every quote at once however. Let's start with # 1

<<1. The primary issue is over an eternal attribute of God. We all agree that God is Love and will be so forever. We believe that God is Wise and will be so forever. The scriptures also depict God as Full of Wrath towards his enemies... Malachi 1:4 states that of the wicked among the Edomites will be a people that bear His indignation forever... So the question I have is this... At what point does God no longer carry the attribute of jealousy? At what point is he no longer releasing vengeance on sin and his enemies? >>



1. Malachi 1:4 states that of the wicked among the Edomites will be a people that bear His indignation forever... “ In context now:

Mal 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Gill writes:


Mal 1:4 - Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished,.... Or the Idumeans, as the Targum; the posterity of Esau, who acknowledge themselves greatly reduced by the desolations made in their country, cities, towns, and houses, being plundered of all their valuable things. Kimchi interprets it,
if the congregation of Edom should say, though we are become poor and low, and our land is laid waste:

but we will return; being now become rich, as the Targum adds; that is, as Jarchi explains it, with the spoils of Jerusalem:

and build the desolate places: as Israel did, as Kimchi observes, when they returned from their captivity; and so the Edomites hoped to do the same:

thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; they attempted to build again their cities and towns, but could not succeed, God was against them:

and they shall call them; or, "they shall be called" (u); this shall be the name they, shall go by among men, by way of proverb and reproach:

The border of wickedness; a wicked kingdom and nation, from one end to the other; this shall be said of them, as the reason of their utter and perpetual desolation:

and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever; not for seventy years only, as against the Jews, Zec_1:12, but forever; and these are now no more a people; they are utterly extinct; their name and nation are lost; there is not the least appearance of them; when the Jews, though they are scattered about in the world, yet they are still a people, and distinct from all others.

Nothing here about eternal torment Beginner. Edom simply would never return to her glory.

I think the main point was missed... I wasn't trying to give a detailed proof text of Malachi 1:4 for the existence of eternal torment (thus why a gave little development to the passage). My premise of point number 1 is that God does not ever drop one of his attributes. Yes, Mal 1:4 is not directly talking about Eternal Conscious Torment, but what it does state is that God has indignation forever and it is against actual wicked humans. I agree the context is not over ECT but the "forever" demands it last post mortem for the individual and after this age for the wicked in that nation. My point is not the nature in which Malachi 1:4 is performed but the fact that the attribute exist eternally. Other passages in the bible explain how the attribute is performed.

So again, when does God ever stop being a God of Jealousy or vengeance against His enemies?

[John 8:32]

Hi John,

I don't believe Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable, at least not in the usual sense of the word. Certainly the account is allegorical... from my point of view - the rich man = the Pharisees; Lazarus (Eleazar) = the poor and downtrodden in Israel. Eleazar means "God is your help" and that is what the rich man always patronizingly said to the poor and downtrodden as they refused to even lift a finger to help.

There are a number of reasons that suggest this account may not be a parable. Firstly, Jesus’ parables are usually identified for us by the gospel writers themselves; this one is not. Secondly, gospel parables tend to center on one clear concept or point out one clear truth; this one does not. Thirdly, the parables of Jesus all involve everyday common events and possible human experiences; this one does not. Lastly, there are few other recorded parables where one finds personal names weaved into the story. The Rich Man and Lazarus then does not readily fit the mold of parable.

The literary form here, at least in my opinion, is satire...and actually a specific kind of satire. I think the Lazarus account is a parody, a parody of Pharisaic doctrine (teacher-action) similar to the previous account where the Pharisees were depicted as the unjust steward who the Lord rewards for his brilliant self-serving and covetous dealings. Notice the Pharisees reaction to that one. Jesus closes off that parody with accusation that the Pharisees justified themselves before men. How could they do that while they religiously would not lift a finger to help the poor. Jesus' uses/twists the very story they told repeatedly to justify their refusal to help the poor... to expose the absurdity of their self-justification and further undermine their authority in the eyes of the common people present in the audience.

The reason it is a parable is...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

This tells me that if Christ were talking to anyone publicly (but the twelve), He was speaking in parables. Just what I see there.

[John 8:32]

Thank you



I think the main point was missed... I wasn't trying to give a detailed proof text of Malachi 1:4 for the existence of eternal torment (thus why a gave little development to the passage). My premise of point number 1 is that God does not ever drop one of his attributes. Yes, Mal 1:4 is not directly talking about Eternal Conscious Torment, but what it does state is that God has indignation forever and it is against actual wicked humans. I agree the context is not over ECT but the "forever" demands it last post mortem for the individual and after this age for the wicked in that nation. My point is not the nature in which Malachi 1:4 is performed but the fact that the attribute exist eternally. Other passages in the bible explain how the attribute is performed.

So again, when does God ever stop being a God of Jealousy or vengeance against His enemies?

Actually, I believe that God is a God of love adn as such, instead of causing the incorrigibly wicked to live forever in their misery, He puts them out of their misery. I believe that many scriptures show this and by destroying them forever as Mat 10:28 shows, they are not miserable, neither do they make others around them miserable.

[Vanderhoven7]

So again, when does God ever stop being a God of Jealousy or vengeance against His enemies?

God's nature and attributes never change...as is reflected in the nature and duration of final punishment He has determined as the wages of sin. The wicked shall utterly and eternally perish as a result.

[The Beginner]

Actually, I believe that God is a God of love adn as such, instead of causing the incorrigibly wicked to live forever in their misery, He puts them out of their misery. I believe that many scriptures show this and by destroying them forever as Mat 10:28 shows, they are not miserable, neither do they make others around them miserable.

Can I get your thoughts on this?

Satan... destroyed or eternally miserable?

Beast and False Prophet... destroyed or eternally miserable?

In light of this verse...

[10] The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Rev 20:10 NKJV

If no to both, can you give your thoughts on the above verse?

If yes, do you believe the beast and False Prophet to be human?

I apologize to go New Testament on us... Maybe we should start another thread... Im interested in you guys thoughts on the other points I mentioned from the OT...

Thanks

[The Beginner]

God's nature and attributes never change...as is reflected in the nature and duration of final punishment He has determined as the wages of sin. The wicked shall utterly and eternally perish as a result.

Great! But does this eternal attribute of God have a practical expression beyond the Great White Throne in your opinion?

[percho]

Hi, Vanderhoven7.
For the purpose of concrete concepts as compared to or rather that abstract concepts to communicate concepts of thinking: I communicate that we no longer exist in hell because our soul is not a living being if we have no spirit/breath and body/dust composing us.
That is eternal torment as seen now from where we are in a dust/body and a spirit that is still only liable to die but not dead-eternal yet.
Our soul not-dead-yet-(still has a body and spirit) can imaging eternal torment, our dead soul(body and spirit-less) cannot imagine anything any longer, get it ?
UNLESS Christ Jesus's work done raises or re-births us from being liable to die/no-life-eternally into an eternal life/no-death-eternally.

I am going by what composes a living-soul from the first time the concept of soul is communicated in our bibles and everywhere there after confirms the original use of that words introduction to us in our bibles both in the archaic Greek and in the archaic Hebrew.

And I am going by what the original Archaic Hebrew words were used before translated into other languages for my use in my communication on/of eternity, and also on/of soul, and also on/of spirit/breath, and also on/of dust, and also life and also death and also functional and also dysfunctional.
The archaic Greek says the exact same things as the archaic Hebrew does on these topics of eternity, soul, spirit, dust, life and death but it communicates these topics or concepts of thinking as abstract rather than concrete as the archaic Hebrew does.


Destruction of our soul's body/dust and the total withdraw of our spirit of God's breath/life-working-purpose-function from our soul leaves us nothing but a body-less soul and a dead empty/none-spirit to facilitate that soul...it will be dead-eternally.

Dead physically when our body separates from the spirit given it by God's spirit/breath/life-working-purpose-function.

Dead eternally if Christ does not recognize us before His Father on that Great Day, the last day, our judgment day after ALL things in heaven and on earth are restored to its original/function/purpose.

Now/currently if we can still read, speak, walk, eat, drink, move, love hate n all the other things living souls can do... then we are still only liable to die or be dead/empty/none-spirit and body-less.
Meaning, no facilities for our soul to affect or effect our environment where ever that may be for our eternally, I hope I know where my environment will be, but that is up to Christ Jesus.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Therefore our house from heaven we put on at the resurrection is eternal life in spiritual body form for the soul in Hades or being resurrected from Hades?

[Vanderhoven7]

Great! But does this eternal attribute of God have a practical expression beyond the Great White Throne in your opinion?

There will be no recovery for the wicked who perish in the second death....just as there was no recovery for Edom.