ETERNAL TORMENT - IMAGE OR REALITY?

[Vanderhoven7]

1 Cor 15:35 ASV But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come? The dead what? The dead "persons with names" who had been living souls and with what manner of body will Larry, Curly and Mo come up with from the dead?

Acts 2:31,32 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;

The resurrection concerns the totality of the person. Spirit is the essence of life from God that keeps a person alive, that is a living soul. When Jesus commended his spirit unto the hands of the Father, Jesus was no longer a living soul, He was dead. The spirit of life was gone to God the Father who gave it. At that moment his body still hanging on the cross the once living soul Jesus was in the heart of the earth (Hades) the lowest parts of the earth, for three days and three nights and his body was at that moment still hanging on the cross subject to corruption yet being given the sure mercies of David woiuld not see corruption it was buried in an above ground tomb just before the fifteenth day of the month sabbath begin.

After three days and three nights from his death God the Father by the Holy Spirit raised the soul Jesus his Son from Hades and his flesh did not see corruption. Jesus, the only begotten Son of God the Father the seed of Abraham and also David had been dead. This is said of the resurrected Jesus. Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. And this; Acts 13:30,33 But God raised him from the dead: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee. It is the Father that raises the dead and quickens (gives life). John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And this is the kind of life he gave him at that time: John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

His soul was not left in Hades. It was resurrected.
Neither did his flesh see corruption and was resurrected incorruptible, no more to return to corruption. Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

David in contrast is both dead and buried. His soul is in Hades and his flesh saw corruption.

Jesus was the heir of this promise and when he was resurrected, the firstborn from the dead, he inherited this promise. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Jesus also for obedience of faith unto death even the death of the cross received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33 and by the Holy Spirit being shed on through the faith of Jesus Christ we then become joint heirs With Christ of the hope of eternal life, to be inherited when we are born again from the dead by resurrection/instant change at his appearing. Titus 3:6,7 1 John 3:2 Rom 8:29.

Adam wasn't an immortal soul, We are not immortal souls, Jesus wasn't born of the virgin Mary an immortal soul he was born in the figure of the first man Adam.
The only begotten Son of God was flesh and blood, sinless, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, without spot or blemish, through agony and resisting unto blood striving against sin in the garden was obedient unto death. The Father who had begotten him laid all to sin of the world on him and he died for us. Through the faith of Jesus obedient dying, his shed blood, Jesus was made the mercy seat a propitiation and God the Father by his grace, raised him who had been made sin for us from the dead.

This is what I call sound doctrine. Thank you for this excellent contribution.

[MoreMercy]

Faith in Jesus Christ is required to be saved. There's no other options such as to vanish. And only those with the correct kind of faith will be saved in accordance to the Second Covenant. Your deed/work is meaningless and doesn't count if your faith is not correct in the first place.

By spreading your doctrine, you are not only risking your own life but others' lives as well. Think!

Hawkins: God bless you good servant and friend of my Master.
Keep co-working with Christ Jesus, I pray His Father's quickening Spirit be with you everywhere you will minister, everywhere you will heal/feed and everywhere you will give drink/preserve-life and everything that you will guard/keep in His Father's will and word.

If we do not understand what a soul is, then we will not understand what the second-death/eternal-death is.

If we do not understand that saved means restored, then we will not understand what eternal-life is.

And, If we do not understand that as long as we still draw breath and still walk on this firmament and still have blood in course through our flesh bodies but have no understanding of what we are still liable/have-opportunity to be restored back into then we will not understand any good/functional/true and profitable thing at all until all things be restored in heaven and on the earth, and then those who did not admit or understand can or will look across the gulf/void and then see and then know by seeing which side of the gulf/void they are on then.
UNLESS we sit now at only Christ Jesus's feet and learn from Him only while we can still draw breath, while we can still walk on this firmament and while we still do have blood course through our flesh bodies.

But sadly then is when there is no more afforded-opportunity to be restored/saved.
Least-good then is: those who did not admit or understand, they will know then what eternal torment is then, and will then functionally-bow knee to the Lord, King and only High-Priest to us now and forever who's words will impart-freely the faith that save/restores.

Do I see His Holy-angels swing harvesting scythes even today......



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Robert Callow]

"eternal judgement", "everlasting punishment", "death", "hell" (hades, Gehenna, Sheol), "outer darkness", "wailing and gnashing of teeth", "beaten with many stripes", "beaten with few stripes", "greater damnation", "blackest darkness", "lake of fire", "everlasting fire", "unquenchable fire", "agony in this fire", "everlasting destruction", "shame and everlasting contempt", "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night" and, "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"... These warnings, when viewed in their different contexts can all be seen to mean anything ranging from an everlasting punishment of everlasting death for those least knowledgeable, most naive and vulnerable, and least responsible and least evil of the condemned, to an everlasting punishment of everlasting torment for all demonic souls who see and know the meaning of the Spirit of truth and yet still continue in their cravings for pleasure and ecstasy in offending this Spirit. Their endless need to bury the truth and to see the only proven conveyor of truth, abused, tormented and destroyed can only bring endless conflict with the self and with others, and endless conflict means endless torment. We shall all be given according to our needs and nothing could be more right or more just.

The punishment in the lake of fire will last forever to the satisfaction of the perfect justice of the perfect loving and merciful God of reason, and whilst the ultimate deterrent for evil will serve as part of the ultimate safeguard for good, we should also remember: To cause or allow any more suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal well-being of "the Spirit of truth" is alien to mercy and reason and to all that is good.

[Vanderhoven7]

"eternal judgement", "everlasting punishment", "death", "hell" (hades, Gehenna, Sheol), "outer darkness", "wailing and gnashing of teeth", "beaten with many stripes", "beaten with few stripes", "greater damnation", "blackest darkness", "lake of fire", "everlasting fire", "unquenchable fire", "agony in this fire", "everlasting destruction", "shame and everlasting contempt", "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night" and, "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"... These warnings, when viewed in their different contexts can all be seen to mean anything ranging from an everlasting punishment of everlasting death for those least knowledgeable, most naive and vulnerable, and least responsible and least evil of the condemned, to an everlasting punishment of everlasting torment for all demonic souls who see and know the meaning of the Spirit of truth and yet still continue in their cravings for pleasure and ecstasy in offending this Spirit. Their endless need to bury the truth and to see the only proven conveyor of truth, abused, tormented and destroyed can only bring endless conflict with the self and with others, and endless conflict means endless torment. We shall all be given according to our needs and nothing could be more right or more just.

The punishment in the lake of fire will last forever to the satisfaction of the perfect justice of the perfect loving and merciful God of reason, and whilst the ultimate deterrent for evil will serve as part of the ultimate safeguard for good, we should also remember: To cause or allow any more suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal well-being of "the Spirit of truth" is alien to mercy and reason and to all that is good.

Hi Robert,

You toss in a list of words and phrases without accompanying scriptures to get the context and meaning...and these by themselves prove very little. Seems unfortunate that God didn't warn Adam in the garden of the full weight of sins judgment. "Dust thou art and to dust thou shall return" is not even a minor fraction of the story. Try presenting your phrases one by one in context and let's deal with them.

After having read every verse (of which I am aware), penned by the Apostles, in the Acts and Epistles, here are my questions.


- Is Eternal Torment explicitly taught by any of these scriptures? OR

- Is Eternal Torment either demanded by or clearly suggested by the
imagery in any of these passages?


LET'S EXAMINE THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE APOSTLES:

CONSUME:
Does "consuming" denote or imply perpetual/endless torture?

PERISH:
Does perishing, "as brute beasts", denote perpetual or endless pain?

DESTROY/DESTRUCTION/EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION:
Does eternal destruction denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?

DEATH:
Does death denote "perpetual/endless anguish"?

ETERNAL FIRE:
Does eternal fire denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?
Could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction?

WRATH OF GOD:
Does "wrath" denote "perpetual/endless pain"?
Would it be fair to say that God's wrath in the Old Testament
aimed at destruction, not endless torment? e.g. The Flood, Sodom

TROUBLE AND DISTRESS:
Does "trouble and distress" denote "endless torture"?
Could the trouble and distress poured out on the wicked ultimately
lead to their destruction (i.e.. death)?

BLACKNESS AND DARKNESS FOREVER:
Does "blackness and darkness forever" denote conscious torment?
Could "blackness and darkness forever" be a metaphor for death?
Similar eternal darkness imagery is encountered in Psalms 49:18-19 which reads:

(18) Though while he (the wealthy) lived, he counted
himself blessed...

(19) he will join the generation of his fathers, who
will never see the light of life.



SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER:
Does eternal exclusion from God's presence, power and majesty denote endless torment? It is interesting to note that this description of final punishment is preceded by the phrase, "PUNISHED BY EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". This destruction both originates or proceeds from God's fiery presence and "it will remove the wicked away from that presence forever". 16 Certainly, no sinner can dwell for long in God's holy presence (Is.33:10-17) without being consumed. But even though the nature of final destruction excludes the possibility of sinners ever entering God's presence, nothing in the language requires unending conscious experience.

[nzyr]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:23-26)

[Vanderhoven7]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:23-26)

Hi NZYR,

This indeed is a very unique passage. Assuming that this passage actually represents "historical narration", leaves us grappling with some rather difficult questions....that I hope you will think about...but not waste your time philosophizing about.


- Was Lazarus literally in Abraham's Bosom?

- Where did the designation “Abraham’s Bosom” and the

torments associated with Hades originate if they cannot

be found in the Hebrew scriptures?



- How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?

- Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?

- Didn’t he demonstrate genuine moral concern for

his lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?



- Don’t both the good and the bad go to hell (Hades/Sheol)

and if so, why didn't Lazarus go there? (Or did he?)

Gen.42:38 Ps.16:9-10 Job !4:13 Acts 2:26,27


- Did the rich man really lift up his literal eyes in hell and

was his literal tongue parched by literal flames?

- Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water if

it would not even begin to cool his tongue?


- Did the rich man actually see and plead with literal Abraham?

-Does that mean that those on the right side of hell catch the attention of and

converse with those on the left side of hell?

- Could the right side of hell be an enjoyable place if this account represents

what literally happens in the afterlife?



Now here is the question I'd like you to answer:

What do you think the point of this passage might be if this story represents historical narration? What do you think Jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees?


But before you answer I think it is important to think about Pharisaic beliefs about the afterlife. The Pharisees were the hellfire preachers of the day; they were the ones that taught that angels carried the righteous to a place on the right side of Hades they called "Abraham's Bosom" and the wicked to the left side of Hades to be tortured by wicked angels. They even partitioned two side of Hades they invented by a great gulf. Now where did they get these detailed ideas? And why would Jesus tell their extra-biblical story back to them? Would He be trying to scare them with their own story? Your thoughts....

EDIT: And one more very important question for you to answer:

How did the Pharisees use their stories of torment after death to justify their total disregard (refusal to even lift a finger) for the needs of the poor?

[John 8:32]

I find it amusing that most who want to take this parable as literal teaching concerning hell, surely don't take verses 29-31 literally...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

After all, this is telling you that to gain salvation you must go to the LAW. Same folks who take this as literal teaching tell you the law is done away, but this parable says the diametric opposite.

[Vanderhoven7]

Here is some of the reference material probably covering the period of about 200BCE to 200AD.


pseudo
The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

(1)Then the great angel came to me with the golden trumpet in his hand, and he blew it up to heaven. (2)Heaven opened from the place where the sun rises to where it sets, from the north to the south. (3) I saw the sea which I had seen at the bottom of Hades. Its waves came up to the clouds. (4)I saw all the souls sinking in it. I saw some whose hands were bound to their neck, with their hands and feet being fettered. (5)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who were bribed and they were given gold and silver until the souls of men were led astray." (6)And I saw others covered with mats of fire. (7)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who give money at interest, and they receive interest for interest." (8)And I also saw some blind ones crying out. And I was amazed when I saw all these works of God. (9)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are catechumens who heard the word of God, but they were not perfected in the work which they heard." (10) And I said to him, "Then do they not have repentance here?" He said, "Yes." (11)I said, "How long?" He said to me, "Until the day when the Lord will judge." (12)And I saw others with their hair on them. (13)I said, "Then there is hair and body in this place?" (14) He said, "Yes, the Lord gives body and hair to them as he desires."


The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 11

(1)And I also saw multitudes. He brought them forth. (2)As they looked at all of the torments they called out, praying before the Lord Almighty, saying, "We pray to you on account of those who are in all these torments so that you might have mercy on all of them." (3) And when I saw them, I said to the angel who spoke with me, "(Who are these?)" (4)He said, "These who beseech the Lord are Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. (5)Then at a certain hour daily they come forth with the great angel. He sounds a trumpet up to heaven and another sound upon the earth. (6)All the righteous hear the sound. They come running, praying to the Lord Almighty daily on behalf of these who are in all these torments."


Testament of Abraham 12

(1)While he was yet saying these things to me, behold (there were) two angels, with fiery aspect and merciless intention and relentless look, and they drove myriads of souls, mercilessly beating them with fiery lashes. (2)And the angel seized one soul. And they drove all the souls into the broad gate toward destruction. (3)Then we too followed the angels and we came inside that broad gate. (4)And between the two gates there stood a terrifying throne with the appearance of terrifying crystal, flashing like fire. (5)And upon it sat a wondrous man, bright as the sun, like unto a son of God. (6) Before him stood a table like crystal, all of gold and byssus. (7)On the table lay a book whose thickness was six cubits, while its breadth was ten cubits. (8)On its right and on its left stood two angels holding papyrus and ink and pen. (9)In front of the table sat a light-bearing angel, holding a balance in his hand. (10)[On] (his) left there sat a fiery angel, altogether merciless and relentless, holding a trumpet in his hand, which contained within it an all- consuming fire (for) testing the sinners. (11)And the wondrous man who sat on the throne was the one who judged and sentenced the souls. (12)The two angels on the right and on the left recorded. The one on the right recorded righteous deeds, while the one on the left (recorded) sins. (13)And the one who was in front of the table, who was holding the balance, weighed the souls. (14)And the fiery angel, who held the fire, tested the souls. (15)And Abraham asked the Commander-in-Chief Michael, "What are these things which we see?" And the Commander-in-chief said, "These things which you see, pious Abraham, are judgment and recompense." (16)And behold, the angel who held the soul in his hand brought it before the judge. (17)And the judge told one of the angels who served him, "Open for me this book and find for me the sins of this soul." (18)And when he opened the book he found its sins and righteous deeds to equally balanced, and he neither turned it over to the tortures nor (placed it among) those who were being saved but he set it in the middle.




Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 4

(1)And the prophet said, "Lord, I shall never cease arguing the case with you." (2)And God said, "Count the flowers of the earth. (3)If you can count them you also will be able to argue the case with me." (4) And the prophet said, "Lord, I cannot count them-I bear human flesh- but neither will I stop arguing the case with you. (5)I wish, Lord, to see the lower parts of Tartarus." (6)And God said, "Go down and see!" (7)And he gave me Michael and Gabriel and thirty-four other angels. (8)and I descended eithty-five steps and they led me down five hundred steps.






4 Maccabees

13 Now, therefore, if the seven brothers scorned suffering even unto death, it must be universal conceded that the pious reason is complete master of the passions. (2)For if being enslaved to the passions they had eaten unclean food, we would have said that they had been conquered by them. (3)However, in this case it did not happen so, but by the reason which is commended by God they prevailed over the passions, (4)and so we cannot but preceive the mind's supremacy over them since they overcame both passion and sufferings. (5)How then can we fail to admit, in regard to these men, right reason's victory over the passions, seeing that they did not shrink from the pains of fire? (6)Even as towers at the entrance to harbors repulse the threatening onslaughts of the waves and provide a calm haven for those who sail into it. (7)so the seven-towered right reason of the youths forified the have of piety and tamed the rugged license of the passions. (8)They formed a hol choir of piety as they encouraged each other with the words, (9)"Let us die like brothers all, brothers, for the Law's sake. Let us follow the example of the three youths in Assyria, who despised the same trial by ordeal in the furnace. Let us not be pusillanimous in the demonstration of true piety." (10,11)"Courage, brother!" said one, and another, "Hold on nobly!" (12)And another, recalling the past, said, "Remember whence you came and at the hand of what father Isaac gave himself to be sacrificed for piety's sake." (13)Each one severally and all together, looking at each other with most cheerful mien, aglow with courage, said, "With all our hearts let us consecrate ourselves unto God, who gave us our souls, and let us expend our bodies for the custodianship of the Law. (14)Let us have no fear of him who thinks he kills. (15)Great is the ordeal and peril of the soul that lies in wait in eternal torment for those who transgress the commandment of God. (16)Let us then arm ourselves with the control over the passions which comes from divine reason. (17)After our death in this fashion Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will receive us, and all our forefathers will praise us." (18)And to each one of the brothers as they were dragged away, those who were left said, "Do not shame us, brother, nor be traitor to our brothers who have already died."




2 Esdras 7

(26)'Listen! The time shall come when the signs I have foretold will be seen; the city which is now invisible shall appear and the country now concealed be made visible. (27)Everyone who has been delivered from the evils I have foretold shall see for himself my marvellous acts. (28)My son the Messiah shall appear with his companions and bring four hundred years of happiness to all who survive. (29)At the end of that time, my son the Messiah shall die, and so shall all mankind who draw breath. (30)Then the wrold shall return to its origninal silence for seven days as at the beginning of creation, and no one shall be left alive. (31)After seven days the age which is not yet awake shall be roused and the age which is corruptible shall die. (32)The earth shall give up those who sleep in it, and the dust those who rest there in silence; and the storehouses shall give back the souls entrusted to them. (33)Then the Most High shall be seen on the judgement-seat, and there shall be an end of all pity and patience. (34)Judgement alone shall remain; (35)truth shall stand firm and faithfulness be strong; requital shall at once begin and open payment be made; good deeds shall awake and wicked deeds shall not be allowed to sleep. (36)Then the place of torment shall appear, and over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise of delight.



Jewish Martyrs believed that: "After our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us"

(4 Maccabees 13:17 in J.H. Charlesworth, The OT Pseudepigrapha, Doubleday, 1983).



"You have escaped from the abyss and Hades, you will now cross over the crossing place... then he ran to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David"

(Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:2. Charlesworth, op. cit.).




The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18

Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them, they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in anything which they have introduced; and, when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of men can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines, they are able greatly to presuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities gave great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also.

(The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 1)



(Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, Apocrypha Baruch, with apparent reference to Gen 6:1-4; compare ESCHATOLOGY, OF THE OT)

1 Enoch

4Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. 5And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth. 6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. 9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire. 10Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it. 11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring. 12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.


13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, (13) to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs. 14They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

15To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed. 16Then shall they be taken away into the lowest depths of the fire in torments; and in confinement shall they be shut up for ever. 17Immediately after this shall he, (14) together with them, burn and perish; they shall be bound until the consummation of many generations.

18Destroy all the souls addicted to dalliance, (15) and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind. 19Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth; 20Let every evil work be destroyed;

21The plant of righteousness and of rectitude appear, and its produce become a blessing. 22Righteousness and rectitude shall be for ever planted with delight. 23And then shall all the saints give thanks, and live until they have begotten a thousand children, while the whole period of their youth, and their sabbaths shall be completed in peace. In those days all the earth shall be cultivated in righteousness; it shall be wholly planted with trees, and filled with benediction; every tree of delight shall be planted in it.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html#10



2 Enoch

"2 Enoch, or the Slavonic Apocalypse of Enoch, was written late first century C.E. in Egypt by a Jew. It survives only in late Old Slavonic manuscripts. It may have been composed originally in Aramaic or Hebrew, later being translated into Greek, and later still being translated into Old Slavonic. It is an amplification of Gen 5:21-32 (from Enoch to the Flood). Major theological themes include:

(1) God created the world out of nothing (24:2);

(2) seven heavens (30:2-3) and angelic hosts;

(3) God created the souls of men before the foundation of the earth (23:5);

(4) abodes of heaven and hell are already prepared for righteous and sinners; and

(5) ethical teachings, which at times parallel those of the NT and Proverbs."

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...pts/enoch.html



Testament of Benjamin

"And then you will see Enoch and Seth and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob being raised up at the right hand in great joy. Then shall we be raised, each of us over our tribe, and we shall prostrate ourselves before the heavenly King. Then all shall be changed, some destined for glory, others for dishonor, for the Lord first judges Israel for the wrong she has committed and then he shall do the same for all the nations."
(Testament of Benjamin 10:6-11)



2 Baruch

For the earth will surely give back the dead at that time; it receives them now in order to keep them, not changing anything back in their form. But as it has received them so it will give them back. And as I have delivered them to it so it will raise them. For then it will be necessary to show those who live that the dead are living again, and that those who went away have come back. And it will be that when they have recognized each other, those who know each other at this moment, that my judgment will be strong, and those things which have been spoken of before will come. And it will happen after this day which he appointed is over that both the shape of those who are found to be guilty as also the glory of those who have proved righteous will be changed. For the shape of those who now act wickedly will be made more evil than it is now so that they shall suffer torment. As for the glory of those who proved to be righteous on account of my law, those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their heart, their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty....Both these and those will be changed, these into the splendor of angels and those into startling visions and horrible shapes, and they will waste away even more....Why do we weep for those who go into the realm of death? The lamentations should be kept for the beginning of that coming torment; let the tears be laid down for the coming of that destruction which will then come....The torment of judgment will fall upon those who have not subjected themselves to your power...for at the end of the world, a retribution will be demanded with regard to those who have done wickedly in accordance with their wickedness....

(2 Baruch 50:2-52:5, 54:14, 21)


The text goes on to describe the bliss of Paradise for the righteous and the torture of chains and everlasting darkness for the wicked.


1 Enoch 22

They prepared these places in order to put the souls of the children of the people there until the day of their judgment and the appointed time of the great judgment upon them. I saw the spirits of the people that were dead, and their voices were reaching into heaven until this very moment...At that moment, I raised a question regarding the judgment of all, 'For what reason is one separated from the other?' And he replied and said to me, 'These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead may be separated. And in the manner in wihch the souls of the righteous are separated by this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not yet been executed upon them in their lifetime, upon this great pain, until the great day of judgment -- and to those who curse there will be plague and pain forever, and the retribution of their spirits. They will bind them forever -- even if from the beginning of the world.
(1 Enoch 22:4-5, 8-12)


Ascension of Isaiah

This accursed valley [e.g. Gehenna] is for those accursed forever; here will gather together all those accursed ones, those who speak with their mouths unbecoming words against the Lord and utter hard words concerning his glory. Here shall they be gathered together, and here shall be their judgment, in the last days. There will be upon them the spectacle of the righteous judgment, in the presence of the righteous forever....There was produced from that bronze and fire a smell of sulfur which blended with those waters. This valley of the perversive angels shall continue to burn punitively underneath that ground....The Most High will arise on that day of judgment in order to execute a great judgment upon all the sinners...Woe unto you sinners, when you oppress the righteous ones, in the day of hard anguish, and burn them with fire! You shall be recompensed according to your deeds. On account of the deeds of your wicked ones, in blazing fires worse than fire it shall burn....You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol and they shall experience evil and great tribulation--in darkness, nets, and burning flame. Your souls shall enter into the great judgment; it shall be a great judgment in all the generations of the world. (1 Enoch 27:2-3, 100:4-9, 103:7-8)


I will burn with fire those who mocked them and ruled over them in this age...I have prepared them to be food for the fire of Hades, and to be ceaseless soaring in the air of the underworld regions of the uttermost depths, to the contents of a wormy belly....For they shall putrefy in the belly of the crafty worm Azazel, and be bburned by the fire of Azazel's tongue....And behold, in this light a fiery Gehenna was enkindled, and a great crowd in the likeness of men. They were all changing in aspect and shape, running and changing form and prostrating themselves and crying aloud words I did not know. (Apocalypse of Abraham 15:6-7, 31:2-6)

The souls of the wicked are brought down to Sheol by two angels of destruction, Za'api'el and Samki'el....Za'api'el is appointed to bring down the souls of the wicked from the presence of the Holy One, blessed be he, from the judgment of the Sekinah, to Sheol, to punish them with the fire in Gehinnom, with rods of burning coal. (3 Enoch 44:2-3)

[Robert Callow]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:23-26)

Luke 16:19-31 tells us of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and this parable certainly does make it look like there will be everlasting torment for the likes of that rich man (although there is nothing definite to say that the period of torment will be infinite). But either way, Jesus was specifically referring to Jews here, verses 24, 25 and 29 make that very clear. This rich man and his brothers then would have been made aware of the God of Abraham and therefore also their duty under the moral law. Such men as this rich man would have been given a fair understanding of the difference between the goodness of God and evil, but the same cannot be said for everyone who will be condemned. There will be others condemned who will not have the same knowledge and understanding or even the same contempt for goodwill as the rich man described here. Why then should we believe those least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will suffer in this way when the Bible also speaks of "death" and of a lesser damnation?

[John 8:32]

Luke 16:19-31 tells us of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and this parable certainly does make it look like there will be everlasting torment for the likes of that rich man (although there is nothing definite to say that the period of torment will be infinite). But either way, Jesus was specifically referring to Jews here, verses 24, 25 and 29 make that very clear. This rich man and his brothers then would have been made aware of the God of Abraham and therefore also their duty under the moral law. Such men as this rich man would have been given a fair understanding of the difference between the goodness of God and evil, but the same cannot be said for everyone who will be condemned. There will be others condemned who will not have the same knowledge and understanding or even the same contempt for goodwill as the rich man described here. Why then should we believe those least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will suffer in this way when the Bible also speaks of "death" and of a lesser damnation?

The Rich man was Judah, the poor man was Eliezer, Abrahams sevant. I have done this one a few times, but anyhoo, it all boils down to the Jews rejecting Christ at that time and the Gentiles accepting Him (Eliezer was a Syrian). Mat 8:1-12, Mat 21:23-43, Luke 13:28, etc.

[Robert Callow]

The Rich man was Judah, the poor man was Eliezer, Abrahams sevant. I have done this one a few times, but anyhoo, it all boils down to the Jews rejecting Christ at that time and the Gentiles accepting Him (Eliezer was a Syrian). Mat 8:1-12, Mat 21:23-43, Luke 13:28, etc.

That may be so but his parable also appears to describe a punishment worse than death for those who know God and deliberately offend Him.

[John 8:32]

That may be so but his parable also appears to describe a punishment worse than death for those who know God and deliberately offend Him.

And also appears to say that salvation is of the law. Neither is true.

[percho]

The story/parable, your choice, follows on the heal of this statement, "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery," made relative to entering the kingdom of God. What is the significance of the statement to the story/parable if any?

Any thoughts.

[Robert Callow]

And also appears to say that salvation is of the law. Neither is true.

Are you saying you do not believe in a greater damnation for those most knowledgeable and most offensive of the damned?

[John146]

But doesn't that contradict some folks conclusions when it comes to the following passage?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If this passage is meaning eternal torment in the LOF as many suppose, isn't it then required, that if the torment lasts forever, then so should this part...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels , and in the presence of the Lamb ?

I had this passage in mind:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I believe what verse 9 is saying is that the wicked will be separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power. They will not have the opportunity to be directly in His presence while experiencing "the glory of his power". I believe the context of Rev 14:10-11 is that "the holy angels and...the Lamb" will be able to see their torment but that doesn't mean they can also see "the holy angels and...the Lamb". I don't think that is saying they will be directly in the presence of "the holy angels and...the Lamb" in the sense that they can see them and interact with them.

The fact that Rev 14:11 says "they have no rest day nor night" strongly suggests to me that the wicked will not be annihilated but will be tormented forever. How else can we make sense of them not having "rest day nor night"? I don't see how that could possibly apply to them being annihilated. It seems clear to me that in order for them to not have rest day nor night would require them to be conscious.