What is the main reason some DO NOT submit to God?

[Fenris]

But since nothing I've talked about is relevant, just what is the overarching point of your point? I told you I agreedwith your very basic premise. does it lead somewhere

I've told you where it goes.

I knew you would eventually acknowledge i am a genius, by the way.

Also humble.

[keck553]

When it comes to justification, we are all geniuses.
.

You sir, are a master of epigrams!

[the rookie]

No, everyone's evil and rejecting the NT means they aren't "saved" from their evil. I understand your language very well. But I think everyone here is still missing my point. One's rejection of the bible doesn't have to be willful rejection of God per se. One might reject the bible because they find it unconvincing. That is somehow being elevated into 'willful rejection of God", which it clearly is not.

Sorry, stepped away - lots happened, apparently, since my last post...

Anyways, I catch what you're saying now. I was hitting a different point, but yes, this helped me catch what you are saying.

Sure it does. The law is the antidote to evil.

Got it - thanks for the clarification.

Of course. But which bible?

Also, good point

It seems as if the fundamental difference (and uncrossable divide) in this conversation revolves around what men define (and debate) versus what can only be revealed by God to man - through His word, yes - but still must come from Him. No argument wins the day - we need God to reveal God to us, or we get nowhere.

Really, the conversation should shift to that subject - not "why do men refuse to submit to the Bible?", but, to be more precise, "why do men refuse to submit to God when He reveals Himself to them?"

[Fenris]

"why do men refuse to submit to God when He reveals Himself to them?"

Now that would be "willful rejection".

[the rookie]

Now that would be "willful rejection".

I'm slow, but I catch up eventually

[Eyelog]

Now that would be "willful rejection".

Yes, YHWH is what i meant. I apologize for my selective reading of my own material.

So far as willful rejection and un- or non- willful rejection, either type of rejection dooms the rejector, which I have already demonstrated in the Scripture, as I think has Mary.

Furthermore, the point about God revealing Himself via Scripture or anything else was already raised to you, but now that the head hauncho is involved, you suddenly become very agreeable.

This, I find to be disingenous, as is your pretend offense at the lack of humility, the pomposity, arrogance, personal attacks and all other forms of non-beauty you have whined about during this thread conversation. Surely, you know these things about your own conduct here.

Finally, hiding behind the 'i am unconvinced because you, God, didn 't reveal yourself to me in just the way i wanted' premise won't avail much in the Last Day. Again, willful or not willful is His to call, not you. And though I agreed with your defining premise, that rejection wihtout knowledge is by definition non-willful rejection, I never agreed that such ever occurs. With as much as you know, there is no way.

Maybe a child in the womb, but for the authority of the OT Scriptural poetry you reject as non-authoritative.

So, my premise is that i think thou dost protest too much, which is to say you hang around here looking for reason to believe. Sometimes that requires you step on a few planks to see if they hold up. I've just been trying to say, even loose boards can hold up, though they might see-saw back in your faith. ... er, I meant face.

[Fenris]

Yes, YHWH is what i meant. I apologize for my selective reading of my own material.

Ah.

So far as willful rejection and un- or non- willful rejection, either type of rejection dooms the rejector, which I have already demonstrated in the Scripture, as I think has Mary.

Not really the topic of discussion here.

Furthermore, the point about God revealing Himself via Scripture or anything else was already raised to you, but now that the head hauncho is involved, you suddenly become very agreeable.

All he said was "why do men refuse to submit to God when He reveals Himself to them?" which is a valid point. He didn't say anything about scripture. And I don't think one reading a book, however sacred, is "God revealing Himself."

This, I find to be disingenous, as is your pretend offense at the lack of humility, the pomposity, arrogance, personal attacks and all other forms of non-beauty you have whined about during this thread conversation. Surely, you know these things about your own conduct here.

Aha. So the antisocial behavior I attribute to you actually applies only to me. Boy is my face red.

Finally, hiding behind the 'i am unconvinced because you, God, didn 't reveal yourself to me in just the way i wanted' premise won't avail much in the Last Day. Again, willful or not willful is His to call, not you. And though I agreed with your defining premise, that rejection wihtout knowledge is by definition non-willful rejection, I never agreed that such ever occurs. With as much as you know, there is no way.

Again, off topic for the discussion at hand. And whatever happened to 'judge not'?

So, my premise is that i think thou dost protest too much, which is to say you hang around here looking for reason to believe.

Ah, a mindreader as well. Amazing.

Sometimes that requires you step on a few planks to see if they hold up. I've just been trying to say, even loose boards can hold up, though they might see-saw back in your faith. ... er, I meant face.

Ooh, and witty too!

[Adstars]

I do not believe we can trust our conscience alone...

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We must continually compare it to God's word and His ways to be sure we are thinking like God.

I believe the consciences of little ones, young children are good. But what is seen as the heart is our own desires and thinking that comes in later and shouts our conscience down until it becomes an almost inaudible moan in the background.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Eyelog]

Ah.

Not really the topic of discussion here.

All he said was "why do men refuse to submit to God when He reveals Himself to them?" which is a valid point. He didn't say anything about scripture. And I don't think one reading a book, however sacred, is "God revealing Himself."

Aha. So the antisocial behavior I attribute to you actually applies only to me. Boy is my face red.


Again, off topic for the discussion at hand. And whatever happened to 'judge not'?

Ah, a mindreader as well. Amazing.


Ooh, and witty too!

.............

[MaryFreeman]

What makes the bible...any bible...so convincing that someone who reads it once must automatically accept it? Nothing.

That isn't what I am saying though Fenris....

I said there are those who both willfully and knowingly reject it.... And then there are those who reject it without even considering it first.... One is knowingly and willfully rejecting.... The other is just willfully.... Willful and knowing are two different things.... But for me personally.... Understanding that those are God breathed words would convince me to accept it.... But that is just me.... Some need more.... Which isn't a bad thing if they are genuinely seeking God.... But some aren't.... Which is of their own free will.... Which is the epitome of willful....

[Eyelog]

That isn't what I am saying though Fenris....

I said there are those who both willfully and knowingly reject it.... And then there are those who reject it without even considering it first.... One is knowingly and willfully rejecting.... The other is just willfully.... Willful and knowing are two different things.... But for me personally.... Understanding that those are God breathed words would convince me to accept it.... But that is just me.... Some need more.... Which isn't a bad thing if they are genuinely seeking God.... But some aren't.... Which is of their own free will.... Which is the epitome of willful....

Well said, yet once again.

[RollTide21]

No, you're really not.


It makes a big difference if it's obvious or not. If it's not obvious, then you can't blame people for not believing it.

Or maybe they don't believe because its, you know, not so obvious after all?

I agree that it makes a big difference, but I don't believe that God factors in whether or not it's "obvious" or not. I believe that He grants each of us enough of Himself to either push Him away or receive Him. The more we respond, the more He reveals. The more we push Him away, the more He fades from perception.

What is the end of this? Do I believe that only those who make a public profession of Faith in Christ who were previously indoctrinated into other religions become saved? From my limited perspective, no. I believe that God sees the hearts of people and He judges based on the softness of the heart to His Word (not the Bible...I mean His Voice).

[Fenris]

That isn't what I am saying though Fenris....

You're all over the place here.

I said there are those who both willfully and knowingly reject it.... And then there are those who reject it without even considering it first.... One is knowingly and willfully rejecting.... The other is just willfully....

No, it's not. And here's why-

Understanding that those are God breathed words would convince me to accept it....

Of course if someone believes the bible is of divine origin they are going to accept it. But what if they don't think it's of divine origin? Then they're not going to accept it. That's not willful rejection of God. That's finding a book less than credible.

See where I had the discussion with The Rookie, above? If God appears to someone and says "Here I am" and the person rejects it, that is a willful rejection of God.

Saying they find some book unconvincing? Not so much.

[Fenris]

I agree that it makes a big difference, but I don't believe that God factors in whether or not it's "obvious" or not.

That's Christian dogma. But it's not topical to our discussion, which is whether all rejection of God is willful.

[RollTide21]

I've explained it repeatedly. It means that not everyone refusing to submit to God is willfully rejecting God.

A point should be cleared up, here.

Do you believe that everyone has an opportunity to hear from our God in some form or fashion?